Emerging Pensees
thoughts on God, faith, life, and the emerging church... btw, "pensees" is French for thoughts. get your mind out of the gutter ;)
about


Name: Mike Clawson
From: Austin, Texas, United States
About me: A follower of the way of Christ, a "postmodern" Christian, an amateur theologian/ philosopher, a husband, a father, a student, a friend...
More..
Contact: mike(dot)clawson
(at)gmail(dot)com


My Facebook Profile:
http://www.facebook.com/ mike.clawson1
Blog Categories
  • - atheism
  • - book reviews
  • - emerging church
  • - Emma
  • - Aidan
  • - fun
  • - personal
  • - politics
  • - social justice
  • - theology
Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right No flames here Mike. I have to agree that using the "they started it" or "she did it too" argument is lame (trust me I know, I've used it) and adds no value to the discussion. Disagreements on politics or religion are not a bad thing, but it's best to discuss them with rational arguments rather then finger pointing and name calling. "Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-- H.L. Mencken

Both parties have to resort to these kind of tactics, since neither has any real ideas.

Nonetheless, it's entirely proper to direct the majority of one's criticism against the conservatives. Republicans offer us 1984; Democrats offer us Brave New World. Both options suck, but until a third choice becomes available, I'll opt for the latter.
No intense flames from this side either.

I do want to mention that just the word criticize falls into one of my pet peeves. Why criticize either side? I always thought the ideal (please don't say 'but that is not what you doing now') was to be offering a positive alternative. Constant belittling and partisan criticism is a significant part of the problem.

The main reason I have never identified with mainline Protestants is that I am not protesting anything. I stand for truth, love, charity, grace and forgivness.

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. (Romans 12:18)
I yearn for civil discussion of ideas with another person. However, I hardly ever find it. I think what you've described is human thing, in that we all want our tribe to win and be right. To do this, we either have to paint ourselves as better than the others or as bad as the others. I must confess, I've used the same tactics against others of differing politics. I think civil discussion is possible, but sometimes I wonder! I'll provide a weak defense of the "the other side does it to" argument, at least in the context of politics. (1) Most Americans consider politics a choice between two parties; it's therefore useful information for the voting public to know that the other party is just as evil as you. (2) Assuming that by "dirty politics," you mean activities that are legal but in undesirable, parties are presumably engaged in them because they're useful, and would be virtuous chumps if they gave them up while the other party kept engaging in them. For example, I don't like gerrymandering, and would prefer that both parties stopped doing it. However, the Democrats would be chumps if they stopped on their own, and I don't really want them to stop, if the Republicans are going to keep doing it when they're in power---that would be idealistic and virtuous, but it would give Republicans a huge unfair advantage. (And conservatives can reasonably swap the words "Democrats" and "Republicans" in the preceding sentence.) Another reason to criticize mostly Republicans is that one just *expects Democrats* to act in those ways, so it's hardly worth noticing, whereas for Republicans it's shocking and unacceptable. ;) (Just a joke.)

Yes, I wish our public dialogs were more civil. But for me it's only partly because I like peace and harmony. The rest of it is that sniping is so distracting and counterproductive. I want facts and reasoned discussion. I wish political debates were more like academic ones. Not that academics are all perfect ladies and gentlemen, but the overall atmosphere seems more reasonable.

Also, I think criticism is important along with giving constructive ideas. People need to know the limits as well as the core of proper behavior. And when someone creates ill will by the things they do, it needs to be dealt with in some way (criticism plus apologies at least) rather than pretending it didn't happen and letting the bad feelings fester. It can clear the air for more constructive dialog to happen.
I'm going to disagree with Milton and say that I more often than not find conversations with another person quite interesting and edifying. The problems come when I (rarely) listen to AM radio or watch political TV news or (more frequently) turn to the Internet for such things. Abstracted from human bodies and human community, interlocutors in such spheres of "discourse" lose humanity in a hurry, dive right down past cheap fiction, and turn quickly into bathroom stall cartoon characters. Mike,

As I have seen from discussions you have had, and I have participated in, it appears to me that the "your side does it too" kind of arguement is more an ad hominem. It is a means of pointing out that it this kind of "bad" thing really bothers you, why do you predominantly point it out on the conservative side? And then that assumption becomes validated because most of the positions you promote are antithetical to the broader conservative principles.

Personally, I appreciate reading how a "progressive" views conservative positions because I know you are not the only one who sees that and it forces me to answer (at least in my own head) the question or disown that position.

That said, there is a difference when a conservative critisizes conservatives and when a former conservative critisizes conservatives. The prior is "nobody better criticize my momma except me." The latter seems more like the fallout of a divorce.
John Mahan makes a good distinction, Mike. That, or something like it, is what has prompted me to object to the one-sidedness of your commentary at times. It usually sounds more like a bitter divorce' than a son who loves and respects his mother.

People like Mark Noll (who has numerous times very nearly turned in his "evangelical" card) are much easier for an evangelical or conservative to hear and receive and take seriously when they speak in criticism of conservatives and evangelicals. In my opinion maybe that's because of the presence of love and respect in their words of criticism and a sense of balance and fairness in their treatment of things.

Not that in order to have a right to ever criticize evangelicals you'd need to have remained an evangelical like Noll (which in other exchanges you've made very clear you have not). But having left one family, to keep on sniping (almost exclusively) at it for traits that usually are common *human* traits exhibiting themselves in ways particular to that family, as if rather than human traits they were indications of that particular family's unique evil . . . that can be more than a little frustrating to read. And yes, it can prompt a reader to point out that you're complaining about a human phenomenon, not a uniquely conservative or evangelical one.

You may say "a pox on both their houses" from time to time and you don't fully "fit" in either camp. I actually expect that over time in a mainline seminary and context you might fit less and less there, because you're clearly an independent thinker who can often see through BS coming from either direction. But for the couple of years or more I've been reading, most of your pox-throwing tends to go in one direction - the direction that you seem *least* fit in with anymore, as far as I can tell. I'd guess that when you were a conservative evangelical and Rush-listener your criticism was one-sided in the other direction rather than offering balanced, equal-opportunity criticism of conservatives, too.

It's not surprising that having realized you disagree with evangelicals and no longer are one, you'd be angry and want to take them on. "The heresies that men do leave/Are hated most of those they did deceive." But if some ex-pcusa or ex-episcopalian was several years out of their mainline context and had found a new, evangelical church where they fit in better but maintained a blog that they dedicated primarily to criticising the hypocrisies and sins of their old denomination while rarely if ever turning an equally critical eye on their new evangelical context - I'd have much the same reaction to them. And there are such people out there, no question.

I don't mean any of that as a flame. You were obviously bothered, and asked a question that you seemed to genuinely want answered honestly.
Thanks for your thoughts Karl. I think my point was more that the "your side does it too" argument doesn't work with me because I'm not on the other side. Whether or not I'm an evangelical anymore (and really, if I'm not, then it wasn't a divorce so much as an abandonment... I never left, but I was pushed out), the fact remains that I haven't joined the PC(USA), nor the Anglican church, nor the Democrats, or whoever. Perhaps I don't have the "right" to criticize where I've come from. I don't know. Regardless though, the "your side does it too" argument is still irrelevant because it's not my side. And while whatever particular problem I'm pointing out may in fact be a general human trait, that still doesn't excuse the particular behavior being exhibited by particular people, and thus bringing up the "both sides do it, therefore it's just human nature" argument still just feels like a dodge to avoid actually dealing with the issue at hand.

In other words, it's not about me. I'm not on any "side" right now, so maybe that means I don't have the right to criticize anyone, I don't know. But it's still a crappy argument regardless. Forget about what side you think I'm on and deal with your own side's issues.
Maybe it's not so much "your side does it too" as "people all around are doing the same thing, so why do you so frequently single out your ex, to tell everyone how evil she is?"

I agree that issues need to be dealt with, not dodged. Saying "we aren't the only ones" doesn't work as argument and it shouldn't be thrown out merely as a conversation stopper. But at times I think it's a valid point to bring up in the context of a larger discussion re. the issue.

It would be like someone from Wheaton who went to grad school at Cal Berkly complaining about the treatment of conservative opinion on Cal's campus by the majority of Cal students and citing it as an example of liberal groupthink and idea suppression. It might be valid to point out to the Wheatie that at her alma mater, the College Democrats were often treated similarly, if not worse, by their fellow Wheaton students. Not as a conversation-ender as if it invalidated what she just said about her experience at Cal or to discourage efforts to change things in her local context, but at least as a perspective check so she remembers not to demonize the people who are currently pissing her off, as if they were uniquely bad in this respect.
I question this implication that it's inappropriate to criticize your "ex". I think those who have been an intimate part of something, and who are in many ways still a part of it, are often in the best position to see it clearly and comment on the things that need to be improved. Who else is going to do it? True outsiders don't know it well enough to really give a valid critique, and insiders who are merely content with the status quo aren't generally interested in even hearing about the flaws, much less doing anything to correct them.

This "you're not one of us anymore, therefore you don't have a right to critique us" seems like a rather convenient tactic for evangelicals to not ever have to face dissent, especially considering most emergents have not deliberately left evangelicalism, but instead, like myself, have been pushed out by those who didn't like the fact that we were questioning the status quo. According to this logic then, all they have to do is define us as "outside the camp", and thereby suddenly let themselves off the hook from ever having to listen to us again or take our critiques seriously. Yes, very convenient.
When people talk about someone criticizing their ex, I think the idea is that the criticism is bitter, exaggerated, and biased against the ex. But I agree with your point about being in a position to know what to criticize. Andy says it well.

There is inside or used-to-be-inside critique of evangelicals (Noll, for example, or the Wittenburg Door, Ron Sider, Bob Webber, Dallas Willard, Scot McKnight or Rob Bell) that is plenty incisive but easier for evangelicals to hear because of the charity, balance, and sense of an attempt at fairness that comes across. There's less of a sense of "those people suck and I should know because I am/used to be one - let's look at another example of their hypocrisy/blindness/stupidity."

Not to say that more critique isn't needed. But I prefer the constructive and charitable variety. That seems to be the kind that is most likely to be heard and actually result in change.

Persistently one-sided barrages aimed at human tendencies as they show up uniquely in your former tribe as if that tribe was uniquely awful are likely to be met with rejoinders of "take a look around you - welcome to the human race."

Now if you want more of a "Don't Date Him Girl" type of website intended to warn everyone of how bad your ex was and to make sure the evil ex doesn't hoodwink anyone else, then that's a different thing altogether and I guess there's a place for such a site. But if it's about constructive dialogue between people on different sides of an issue - a real conversation rather than a harangue - then maybe more balance would help to actually bring about dialogue. And if you aren't offering the balance then don't be surprised if some of your conversation/dialogue partners try to. Not as a conversation stopper or excuse, but for the sake of clarity and fairness and context.
I'm sorry if it seems to you that my blog is too one-sided Karl. Again, I'll point out that I'm perhaps "one-sided" because I don't have "another side" that I'm on. I'm not on whatever "other side" you want to point the finger back at, so to me bringing in the "other side does it too" is still irrelevant because who was talking about them in the first place? Why point out the speck in the mainliners eyes when we still haven't dealt with the plank in our own?

Of course you're entitled to your opinion on whether you think I'm more of a "bitter-ex" than an "insider". So I take it that you don't think there's anything to my suspicion that many evangelicals have deliberately tried to turn folks like me into "exes" so that they can thereby marginalize our critiques? Perhaps we wouldn't feel the need to be quite so critical if we felt like we were being heard.

Of course, here at my blog there's never any need to balance what I say about evangelicals, since I know I can count on you to immediately jump in with it no matter what I say. ;)
Mike, I'm nearly as much of an independent as you claim to be. I'm not interested in dichotomized thinking and my opinions don't line up neatly in any particular category. I do appreciate balance and charity though. There have been many instances where I defended the emerging church to evangelical friends who were being imbalanced and uncharitable in their characterizations of it. I'll defend Sider and Wallis to people who think they're communists, Brian McLaren to people who think he's a heretic, Franky Schaeffer to people who think he's embraced the devil, and evangelicalism to people who think it's uniformly like Falwell and Dobson - just examples.

Unfairness, lack of balance and charity bug me - wherever they come from, whoever they are directed at and regardless of whether the person doing it is an insider, an outsider, or a used-to-be-insider. They get in the way of constructive dialogue and result in only ever preaching to the choir. Who is the intended audience and what's the intended purpose for your blog? Is it intended as a place for dialogue and to persuade the not-yet convinced including maybe even some evangelicals, or is it mainly a venting place for like minded people who are all angry at the same things, with disagreement discouraged? Maybe that's the key question and maybe I misunderstood its intent. I share many of your frustrations and concerns with evangelicalism. But I'm interested in a fair and charitable discussion with balanced context, and if my idea of what that entails isn't welcome I'll keep quiet.

You accused me before of trying to do something I've never intended to do - assigning you to a "side" or wanting to label you so as to dismiss or pigeonhole you. I don't care what side you are on or whether you are on all sides, or none or even if we scrap the idea of sides altogether. I care about fairness and a balanced context when weighing issues - and especially when leveling critiques.

As far as evangelicals forcing people like you out, I think it has to be looked at on a case by case basis re. where the fault lies. Theologically, at a point I think integrity demands one saying "I'm just not [or the body saying "you just aren't"] an evangelical anymore" rather than trying to play word games to say one still is evangelical even though one differs from evangelicals on almost everything. In that case maybe there's no "fault" just a need to go separate ways. In many other cases the (usually local) church is being insecure or power hungry or too narrow, and is silencing dissent wrongfully. In still other cases the dissenter who thinks he's being prophetic is just being an ass and deserves censure for attitude, more than for the content of his theology and his inability to see this ends up with his being on the outside with martyr/prophet complex still intact. Each case has to be taken on its own merits by those who know both sides of it. But yeah, I hear you that on the local level a lot of bad crap is perpetrated against dissenting voices in many evangelical churches.

Like I said earlier, many of the critiques levelled at the evangelical church by emerging folks are being voiced by people as diverse as Scot McKnight, Tim Keller, Rob Bell, Donald Miller, N.T. Wright and Mark Noll and many others. Maybe there's a reason those voices are mmore frequently heard and, if not always agreed with and followed, not forced out in toto.

Thanks for putting up with a dissenting voice.
Is Democracy Compatible with Christianity? Also, Christianity recognizes all human beings are fallen, so surely there's nobody good enough to be king or queen. Power corrupts us, so best to spread it out as far as we can. Yes, that is another common Christian rationale, typically found among Calvinists (as well as C.S. Lewis). While I agree, I wanted to focus on more positive reasons for democracy. I find an exclusive focus the total depravity argument leads to a purely negative view of government as merely a restraint on human evil, rather than seeing government as one natural expression of the human capacity towards community, cooperation, and love for one's neighbor.

(Which, to reference my previous post, seems to be another one of the chief differences between a conservative, liberal, and progressive view of government. Conservatives see only the former, liberals, only the latter, and progressives, both.)
Tony Jones on why it matters that Jesus REALLY rose. Does it also matter that Adam and Eve were really two historical figures who lived in a physical Garden, and were forced to leave after an incident involving a real talking snake and an actual piece of fruit on an actual tree?

It seems to me that the logic of the two paragraphs above flows just as well, with some minor changes, for the story in Genesis 2. For example "Why is that important? Because I'm a real person" goes through unchanged. "Thus, since the resurrection of Jesus is his defeat of death, evil, and grief, it's important to me that it really happened" becomes "Thus, since the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how sin entered the world, it's important to me that it really happened." And so on. But I think you don't consider the Adam and Eve story accurate on a factual level? So why the difference?
Autumnal, I don't know if you clicked on the link to Tony's complete post - but he acknowledges just that question, so if you haven't, I recommend that you should.

My own partial answer is that a lot of the Genesis stuff reads like poetry (ch. 1) and like "once upon a time" storytelling (ch. 2-11, at least). They say some important things theologically (God is Creator; Creation is good; all people, male and female, are in God's image). But they clearly don't answer (and I think, aren't meant to answer) factual questions about creation. The creation stories in Gen 1 and 2 are different, for one example; there's no account for the other people and cities that Cain encounters, for another.

The Jesus narratives are different. Luke and John, for example, take pains to say that there were eyewitnesses - historical figures living in a physical world - reporting what they saw and experienced. Luke says he made careful investigation; John says he was there and tells what he saw. They're claiming it's not myth, but fact.

People may not accept those claims. But in my opinion, it does violence to the text to claim some inspiration or "mythical truth" in the Jesus narratives while dismissing the author's claims to be reporting factual events. "These guys are liars but they lie so well!"

I can't see much point in giving my life to follow a nice story. When I'm in someone's hospital room watching their last moments, it's no comfort to me that Gandalf came back from death. It's the actuality of Jesus's Resurrection that makes the difference.
AH - like Chris said, Tony did address your question in the post, though not thoroughly. Personally I'd say two things:

1) Interpreting scripture doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing thing. Just because I read parts of it as figurative doesn't mean I have to read all of it as that, or vice versa. The Bible isn't one single book. It's an anthology of lots of different writings, containing many different genres, so, as Chris has argued, it's important to read the different parts for what they are, and not try to apply the same literary standards to each different piece.

2) As to whether the argument for the historicity of the Resurrection also applies to Adam and Eve, I don't think so. What's important about that story is that something did go wrong, sin did, at some point, enter the world. Whether or not it happened exactly like that doesn't matter so much IMHO. What is important is what the story represents, and that is pretty much the same regardless of whether or not it actually happened.

As for the Resurrection, I think it is also important what the story represents. However, in this case, what it represents is very different depending on whether or not it actually happened. If the Resurrection is purely figurative/mythic, then it can still have some significance certainly, but not quite the same meaning and significance, I think, as if Jesus actually rose. I disagree with Tony that liberal Christianity is "impotent", but I do think that it hasn't tapped into the full power that can come with a belief in the historical, physical Resurrection of Jesus. The historical Resurrection can also include all the significance and power of a purely figurative Resurrection, and a whole lot more besides.
I find it disappointing that the worth of Christianity is hung on its founder's last three days rather than the three years of his ministry.

For me, I follow Jesus because of how he lived rather than how he died (and then undied). I'd still try to follow him if he died a withered, old man rather than a beaten, young man.

But, then, I'm weird. Or so I've been told.
Thanks, Chris, Mike, that makes sense.

"These guys are liars but they lie so well!". . .it's no comfort to me that Gandalf came back from death.Hee, hee!
David - I wouldn't say that the Passion and Resurrection is more important than life of Jesus. Rather, the language of the New Testament implies that the Resurrection serves as a vindication of the life and message of Jesus. The Passion is the demonstration and fulfillment of everything Jesus has been talking about - i.e. non-violent resistance to the powers and ideologies of domination, exclusion, and violence - and the Resurrection is the vindication that this resistance is not merely suicidal idealism. "Eye for an Eye" as an Expression of Social Justice That leads to some interesting implications for Anselmian atonement theory, which is predicated on a hierarchy of values ranging from serfs at the bottom to kings at the top of the food chain and ultimately God beyond that. Interesting. Could you say more about that Nathan? I'm not quite following your train of thought. What I'm hearing in Nathan's comment is:

A. If "An 'eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' is not the expression of a vengeful God but a primitive statement of basic social democracy in which no [one] is held of greater worth than another, because each is created in the image of God..."

and

B. If Anselm's theory of atonement is predicated on the idea of inequality

then

C. Anselm's theory of atonement is rendered false.
Lest your good point be lost, however, as I read this I thought:

So, Jesus' teaching is like Hasidism on crack, then. Not only do we limit ourselves to "an eye for an eye" (according to Hasidic teaching) but we do one better:

"Love your enemies."
"DO to others what you would have them do to you." (vs. "DON'T do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you").
"Bless those who curse you."

This is biblical justice: Mercy where punishment is being demanded.

See this article as I interfaced Anselm's concept of justice and mercy with the biblical concept:

http://troymarbles.blogspot.com/2005/01/how-to-create-just-society-short.html
Other Christianities Really interesting post. What are your criteria to determine:

(1) Would I want to be a Gnostic?

(2) Do I agree with their beliefs?

(3) Do I think any of them are more right than the one expressed by the Nicene Creed?

Number 1 is pretty easy, I guess. But on 2 and 3, what is your plumb line for use in determining whether you agree with their beliefs - find them "more right" as opposed to the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed? What do you compare all of them against, and why?
The same criteria I use for assessing any new ideas - a critical weighing of all the evidence I have among the various sources of knowledge available to to me, together with the whole web of prior beliefs that I already hold with varying degrees of probability. I think Wesley's quadrilateral - Scripture, Reason, Tradition, and Experience - is a good summary of these sources, if a little reductionistic (at the very least each of these would need to be pretty expansively defined).

I also happen to think that this "coherentist" view is primarily descriptive - it's how almost all of us tend to obtain and evaluate our beliefs, whether we realize it or not, and whether we like it or not. It's just how human cognition tends to function. So while I might think that I "ought" to answer your question with "sola scriptura", the simple reality is that no one actually does this. We're fooling ourselves if we think that all of our religious beliefs are based on the Bible alone.
I knew you wouldn't answer "sola scriptura" and didn't expect you would feel like you ought to, either.

I like the Wesleyan quadrilateral myself. While I would put scripture as a higher or more decisive source of belief than the other 3, that of course begs the issue that my understanding of scripture is informed by (can only be arrived at through the use of) some combination of the other 3.

So applying this to the question at hand, you line the Nicene Creed and the Gnostics up against scripture, your reason, [what tradition since you subject all traditions to this critique and don't seem to want to identify with any particular one?], and your experience. And you find the Gnostics are lacking because they just aren't very Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. I agree with you, but am interested in how you got there.
By "tradition", I generally mean simply listening to the collective wisdom of the church, both dead and alive. Or as Lewis said (or was it Chesterton? I remember Jerry Root quoting this but I can't recall the attribution now) "Tradition is simply democracy extended through time. It gives votes to the dead. Democracy says I shouldn't discount someone's opinion just because they're my butcher. Tradition says I should discount them just because they're my grandfather."

In other words, I include tradition because I know that my own rational capacities do not reign supreme and I need to listen to other perspectives and voices from all eras. Where I perhaps differ with some others who give a more prominent role to Tradition is that I don't take Tradition to be normative in any case. I will respect and consider other opinions, but I don't take them to be absolutely binding on me just because they were held by my grandfather (or my butcher). Tradition is a check but not a master.

As for the Gnostics, it would take too much time to rehearse what I find lacking about them, but the short version is that 1) their dualism (I just can't buy that this physical world is evil, or that this is a legitimate biblical interpretation); and, related to this, 2) their ahistoricism. Their eschatological vision was to be rescued out of this world, not that the kingdom of God would come and redeem this world. In large part Gnosticism emerged out of a perceived failure of the Jewish/Christian hope for a historical/political renewal of God's kingdom on earth. This is why we find an explosion of Gnostic groups and writings following the final dashing of Jewish nationalist hopes after the defeat of Simon Bar Kochba's rebellion in 135. Again, I think this reactionary, a-historical turn towards inward, escapist religion is based on a misunderstanding of the Biblical hope.

Anyway, it's more complicated than that, but that's all I have time for right now.
Mike, I wonder if you might be conflating two different issues. Most things I've read on the gnostics (which I realize is not the same as what you've read) don't argue that they're "legitimate" in the sense of being substanitally similar to what later became (lowercase) orthodox Christianity. Rather, they say that they were substanially different, but equally "legitimate" in that they were equally viable contenders to become orthodox Christianity, and that it's only with our anachronistic perspective, where we know which group became the orthodox form, that the other groups appear illegitimate.

In reality however, many of these sects were not just alternate Christianities, but really radically different religious belief systems that merely borrowed certain Christian texts and terminology and combined them with other mystical philosophies or religions. For instance, when I read the Nag Hammadi texts I am struck by their utter dissimilarity from anything you find in the Hebrew scriptures or the canonical New Testament writings.

It seems like much of what you say applies equally well to orthodox Christianity, which was radically different from the forms of Judaism that preceded it, which differed substantially from the other types of Christianity it was competing with, and which borrowed heavily from other philosophies and religions. If the Gospel of John hadn't made it into the canon, and you read it now, do you think it would strike you as something that belonged in the canon? It seems to me you would be struck by its utter dissimilarity from anything in the Hebrew scriptures or the canonical New Testament, and you would point out that it was most likely written later than the Synoptic Gospels. And conversely, if the Gospel of Thomas had made it in the canon, do you think it would strike you as such a strange outlier that you'd think it didn't below?
Thanks Mike, good comments. Yes, that was Chesterton. I like that quote. Your approach to tradition is similar to mine, although I probably give more deference than you do to tradition writ-large while still not making it an absolute "master." AH - I think I mean the Gnostics were "illegitimate" in both senses:

1) I don't think they are legitimate interpretations of the Jesus tradition. That is, I don't think there is much link at all between the message and ministry of the actual Jesus of Nazareth, as that was understood by his first followers, and what the majority of the various Gnostic sects believed and taught. I think that can be demonstrated fairly easily historically/textually.

2) I don't think they were "equally viable contenders to become orthodox Christianity". That's a little hard to determine historically since we really don't have any kind of absolute numbers for any of these groups. But the general sense that I get from reading the primary sources (both the Nag Hammadi texts and the "orthodox" refutations) and looking at the rest of the very limited data, is that Gnosticism was not as prevalent as more recent commentators (especially folks like Elaine Pagels or Bart Ehrman) make them out to be (though to be fair, Ehrman is far less on this bandwagon than some others). Gnosticism can usually be traced back to a few specific teachers and communities, whereas the proto-orthodox groups are far more wide spread.

And, regardless of how large they were numerically, there is also the question of whether they were generally perceived in their own day as a parallel stream of Christian interpretation with a continuous history back to Jesus and the Apostles, or as a newer innovation. My sense from the texts is that even the Gnostics themselves recognized that their ideas were "new", which is why they usually presented them as "hidden teachings" and "mysteries" of Jesus that were just now being revealed. Certainly one of key charges leveled at them by their critics was that they were introducing new gods and new texts.

As for your other comment about the similarity of certain texts like the Gospel of John and the Gospel of Thomas, I should clarify that there is a lot of diversity among the Gnostic texts, and they shouldn't be all lumped together into one movement. Certainly there are texts like Thomas and a few others that appear far more similar to the canonical writings. However, read something like the Apocryphon of John or the Gospel of Truth, and you'll see what I mean by utter dissimilarity. There is simply no comparison between them and even what we have in the Gospel of John or even Thomas.

As for the Gospel of John, there was debate even back then about whether it should be included in the canon, precisely for the reason you mention, that it appears to have certain Gnostic elements. Irenaeus put up a pretty good defense of it though in the late 2nd century; and frankly, their are too many other factors in John that mitigate its apparent Gnosticism (for instance, it's hard to imagine the Gnostics saying something like "the Word became flesh", and thinking that was a good thing). Not to mention the thoroughly Jewish themes, and other ,"earthy" sorts of references throughout John as well. It also predates most other Gnostic writings by several decades. Given all that, John seems to be more the kind of thing that was later appropriated and reinterpreted by the Gnostics than a direct product of them.
Those are certainly fair points. I have a lot of skepticism about what we can know with confidence about the teachings of the historical Jesus, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to my inexperience at evaluating old historical data. Your point that the gnostic writings have internal evidence that they knew they were doing something sketchy (i.e. "secret teachings") is certainly reasonable.

With the Gospel of John, my point wasn't that it appears to be gnostic, but that it's very different from the other gospels, and that if it (or, say, Revelation) hadn't made the canon, I think it would appear weird to us today, kind of sketchy, and not really appropriate for the canon. I think it's hard to get away from the bias that things in the canon are normal (kind of by definition), and things not in the canon are bizarre. For example, I know someone who, upon reading the Gospel of Thomas, said that he could see why it didn't make the canon, because it had Jesus saying impossibly non-Jesusy things, like "Whoever does not hate his father and mother cannot follow me." That's an extreme case, but it's illustrative of a general issue.
The Gospel of Thomas is different because it's not a gospel. It tells no story. It's just a collection of sayings. With misogynistic gems like this one:

(1) Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life."
(2) Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male,
so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you."
(3) (But I say to you): "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
Mike, in the past, I've told you that in my view, fundamentalism is "authentic" Christianity, in that the things most fundamentalists believe - substitutionary atonement, salvific exclusivism with eternal damnation for everyone outside of the fold - reflect the core of what most Christians have believed for most of the past 2,000 years. You've told me there have been alternative theologies, and I've replied that these voices have always been suppressed, generally harshly. This is as far as we've gotten.

In dismissing these original alternatives as being less than fully legitimate, you seem to be taking a step closer to my argument.

- Jeff Eyges
The Truth About First Century Women - International Women's Day Synchroblog Mike you said:

"Rather than laying heavy burdens on his listeners by affirming the unrealistic ideals of the Pharisaical rabbis, Jesus stepped into the reality of women's lives and affirmed them where they were at."

What a great example for us as followers of Jesus to follow.
Interesting post. I agree that many NT scholars tend to overplay the "ideal" version of women's social role as private/sequestered from men while underplaying the obvious - that the Gospel stories indicate that women *were* out and about in public life, to some extent. Some scholars in particular seem invested in establishing this dichotomy in order to prove that Jesus was a 1st century feminist. Have you read or heard of "Women & the Historical Jesus: Feminist Myths of Christian Origins" by Kathleen Corley? I found it a thought-provoking read.

As a side note, I would add that the Jewish holiday traditionally associated with women is Rosh Hodesh, the new moon festival. I am not certain how far the back the association goes though...
Likewise, while the rabbinical writings generally restrict theological training to men, ancient inscriptions indicate that in actuality many women did receive instruction in the Torah.

Intriguing! Citation? (Ideally web or semi-popular, as I have no access to an academic library.)
Scholastica - thanks for the book recommendation. And personally I don't think it's necessary to show that the rabbinical ideal was actually carried out very often to still demonstrate that Jesus was opposed to it, and did in fact elevate the status of women. And while the term "feminist" may be historically anachronistic, in the substance of his approach (i.e. in treating women as fully equal members of the human race) I do think Jesus actually was what we today would call a "feminist".

AH - I'm going off my notes from the professor so I don't actually have any citations. I can ask him about it though next time I'm in class.
That would be awesome, thanks Mike. Great post, Mike. I would be interested in any citations you could provide as well. Thanks for the post. It's great to find more on the NT period and context. Learning of the history and social conditions always helps me deepen my understanding of the text and see things from a different perspective, something I think Christ calls us all to do. Thank you so much. If you dont mind, I'd like to re-produce your entry onto my own blog so I can get your voice out into my own community here in NYC Chinatown. Please let me know if this is ok. I've already done so with Kathy Escobar's entry on IWD.
=) Jasmine
Lay-pastor
Inner-City Chinatown, NYC
No problem kupercaya. Feel free to use whatever you like. Okay, here are a few citations (according to my professors) where you can find out more about early inscription data regarding women's roles in the early Roman Empire:

Eisen, Ute. Women Office Holders and Early Christianity

Kramer, Ross. Women’s Religions in the Greco-Roman World

Osiek, Carolyn & MacDonald, Margaret. A Women's Place: House Churches in Earliest Christianity
I think what is most interesting is the trajectory of womens rights. In ancient Egypt and Babylonia, women had tons of rights, some of them pretty modern. They could own property, borrow money, sign contracts, initiate divorce, appear in court as a witness,etc. They could even become Pharaoh!

But then, starting with the Greeks and Romans, all the way through until fairly recently in history, they lost all those rights.

I would be fascinated to read your thoughts on why that was!
Thanks, Mike! The link is here: http://kupercaya.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-truth-about-first-century-women/ Interesting point Michael, I'm not quite sure how to explain why certain cultures have more open attitudes towards women than others. It doesn't necessarily break down along geographic or religious lines. e.g. Babylon may have been more progressive but other Mesopotamian cultures - Assyrians, Persians, etc. - weren't necessarily; and while Classical Greece was more restrictive, Hellenistic Greece was less so. And while most later European cultures were more or less patriarchal, the Celts, who dominated most of Europe before the Romans, were one of the most egalitarian societies in the ancient world. Also, some cultures shifted over time. Rome was more open at certain times, and more restrictive at others.

So yeah, I have no idea. I haven't done a lot of reading on what factors influence a culture to be more or less patriarchal, though it would be a really interesting study. I wonder if anyone has done any work on the topic. Anything I came up with would be pure speculation.
Thanks, Mike!

Lainie, I did some on-line searching on my own for citations. I wasn't able to find anything too detailed, but books on google books have footnotes that indicate that the following books should have good Judaism-centric info (although I haven't seen them myself, as they're not in my public library system :( )

"And All Your Children Shall Be Learned: Women and the Study of Torah in Jewish Law and History," by Shoshana Pantel Zolty

"Women Leaders in the Ancient Synagogue," by Bernadette, J. Brooten
Was Jesus a Church Planter? Troy Bronsink: Lost & Broken vs. Totally Depraved Amen! I heard Henry Cloud use a metaphor recently that resonated. He said, historically the church has been about doctrine. "Believe this and that" and you're in (which usually includes that I'm a depraved sinner). He believes the church should be much more like a 12 step support group that requires one to first admit that you're a mess (hi. i'm jason and i'm an alcoholic) and everyone agrees to a process of "getting better." The church is much more known, in some circles, for being about doctrine than a commitment to "get better." Doctrine requires one to meet a certain criteria before acceptance. The other requires admitting that you can't meet any criteria yet. Jerry Root, a professor I believe Mike had at Wheaton, often makes much the same point as Jason, including the recovery group analogy. We are too often afraid to be authentic with each other - about our doubts, our brokenness, our insecurities, our hidden shames or fears. Yet it was that very authenticity that Jesus invited and almost automatically evoked in the broken sinners who flocked to him - those who "knew they needed a doctor."

Every heart has the great longing to be truly known, and yet loved. But we can be so conditional with each other, and so afraid (often with good reason) that being authentic will result in the withdrawal or withholding of love.
The Theology of a Three Year Old I think you've got the beginnings of a Summa Theologica Emmae on your hands.

Q.1 Whether one God can be in many things and whether many things require many gods?

Obj. 1. If God i sin a tomato then He can't be in a carrot, so there has to be lots of gods."

On the contrary, ...
Nic Paton on Sola Scriptura The Relational Nature of Sin heretic

just thought I'd get things started...
I love it. It would go wonderfully with a similarly heretical paper I wrote about Jesus' relationships to sinners.

In all seriousness, thank you for writing this. It really helps put this issue in a more clear light for me. I've been unsatisfied with the typical expression of how we get our sin for some time, but I didn't know how to express a better alternative view.

So. Good stuff.
test...my last comment didn't post! hmmmm. Let me try this again-

Great post! Glad I stumbled on your site.

I like the relational view of sin. I also think that the continued snubbing of God by a person is to become dehumanized - we become less of what we were intended to be by shutting ourselves off from the intimacy we can know in our Creator.
Have you considered how the image of God is not a status we own of ourselves but is one that is defined as community in relation to Jesus as mediator? That is to say, we express the image of God only insofar as we allow Jesus to mediate all our relationships.
This is a spin off of Bonhoeffer's work on life in community and the idea that without Christ in our midst we love out of need - we absord the other into ourselves to substantiate our own nothingness.
Christ as mediator (image of God) allows us to love freely rather than parasitically.

I'll stop here in case my post gets cyber-snatched again.

grace and peace,
Chad
www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
Hey mike,
Excellent stuff man! I've been pondering through this for some time now, i.e. how to reconcile a more holistic and relationial understanding of sin (a la McKnight) with our traditional understanding of original sin as guilt and propensity that is inherited. You have given me much food for thought.

One question I have: if we go with McKnight's understanding of sin as breaking relationships in four areas: God, self, others, creation, and if we see sin as sociologically conditioned as opposed to inherited, what do we do with the broken relationship between God and self? Here's what I mean. It's easy to see how brokenness within myself, others, and the world is passed down "sociologically" by other broken people. If however, no concept of God is ever passed down, wouldn't your theory say that there would be no broken relationship between me and God, because there was no conditioning that wouuld have broken it (it was, in essence non-existent in my example)? In a post-Christian society, aren't people being raised in contexts where there is no concept of God, so how could they be socially conditioned to have such a relationship broken? Or am I missing something here?
An interesting, if challenging, analysis. I actually think that many in my own PC(USA) denomination would find this intriguing, although they way it works against the foundational Reformed (and thus Presbyterian) doctrine of "total depravity" obviously means that it will find more than a few objections.

I've always noted that, in theory at least, the word "Presbyterian" refers more to a form of church government than a set of theological principles, but I've never seen that possibility evidenced in actual practice. I wonder what such a phenomenon (Presbyterian in government, but rejecting some of those TULIP doctrines) would look like.

(And don't even get me started on how awful a mnemonic TULIP is to begin with. Most of the letters refer not to the actual "doctrine word" but rather the adjective describing that doctrine. I mean, try it. The words "Total, Unconditional, Limited, and Irresistible" don't mean anything particularly useful, while "Depravity, Election, Atonement, and Grace" at least get to something....)
Ironically enough B-W, I wrote this paper for a theology class at the PC(USA) seminary I'm currently attending. My professor loved it, and I'm finding that while most people here do feel a basic loyalty to Calvin, most don't feel constrained to agree with him on everything or to hold slavishly to TULIP. They are very "free" in their interpretations of Calvin here I've found (they're good at making him say pretty much whatever they want him to say), and Barth seems to be as much as an authority for Reformed theology as Calvin in fact.

But all of that might just be this particular institution. I can't speak to the PC(USA) as a whole since I'm not presbyterian myself.
I can go with sin and its effects being at least partially passed down sociologically. In fact I think it's obvious. No doubt we have been wounded by others, and we wound others. And that wounding results in an ever-increasing cycle of brokenness and dysfunctional behavior and further wounding.

But again I don't think it's a case of "either-or." I don't think your theory adequately addresses behavior that crops up that isn't (discernibly) learned anywhere - that seems to come from within. You can track a lot of "sin" back to the nurture side of the equation, but I think some of it you can't, and only the nature side of the equation seems to answer the question of "why are we like this?" in those cases. To use some of Scot McKnight's terminology, I think we come into the world as already cracked eikons of God. Yes, the cracking is furthered through socialization, but it seems to me that we don't enter the world perfect and whole either, as if with some theoretically perfect socialization you could produce a completely unselfish, kind person who consistently always displayed the fruits of the spirit.
How would that work Karl? The main thought of my paper was that a relational condition has to be passed down through relational means. How, in your view, could a relational condition be passed down biologically? Is there a "sin gene" somewhere? I think Karl is getting at my question as well. How is a relational sin of distance from God passed down when there is no concept of God within a particular social context? Robo, I think the obvious answer would be that if God actually exists, but a particular person has no conception of God, then that fact in itself would constitute a break in the relationship that God desires to have with that person.

Though I think you'd have to try pretty hard to find someone who has no conception of God at all. Even in a post-Christian society people have at least some familiarity with the idea of God.
I've often thought this about original sin. Maybe, if a person could be born and grow up independently of other fallen human beings, they'd be unfallen. Maybe. But that doesn't matter, because we can't. Try to care for a baby with a robot or something, and the baby will die from lack of human touch.

I think you're right on here. We all bear the scars of the Fall, but we also still bear God's creative thumbprints. I think this idea saves us from falling into Pelagian pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps pride and hyper-Calvinist no-human-being-can-do-anything-good total depravity. Not to mention thinking that unbaptized babies go to hell.
Mike, why are those the only two options you are willing to consider - relational and biological?

I think there is a spiritual dimension to the person - regardless of exactly how you define it or how you feel about Greek vs. Hebrew or other conceptions of body/spirit. It seems to me that there is an element of brokenness at the spiritual level - brokenness in that imago dei that makes humans somehow different than other animals - that exists when we come into the world and which brokenness is furthered by the way in which we interact with each other.

That brokenness manifests itself in various ways including our insistence on independence and autonomy apart from God and our imperfect ways of relating to others. Whether you can explain it through genetics as per your "sin gene" comment I have my doubts, but that's not all that important to me. I do think there's more to human personhood than what can (or ever will) be explained biologically. However you define that "more" and however it is passed down or bestowed on a new human creature, I think there is fallibility and imperfection and a bent-ness present in it from day one. I don't buy that with perfect socialization you could produce someone who unfailingly manifested nothing but the fruits of the spirit all the time, was never selfish or whatever.
Karl, I don't think I really know what you mean by "spiritual". To me "spiritual" is simply another way of talking about the social/relational/psychological part of ourselves. I can't conceive of it as some kind of separate "thing" or "substance" that exists in us apart from our physical/psychological/social selves. I don't even know what that would be. What do you mean by "spiritual"? Unless you can give some definition to what you mean by that word that is somehow different from "biological" or "social/relational", just throwing it out there as if it explains anything seems like a cop-out. It's just an empty word devoid of any actual content.

As for whether perfect socialization could produce a perfect person, yes, I suppose that's a potential implication of my view. I don't see why that's so hard to believe. However, since perfect socialization is obviously impossible, it's a completely moot point.
Mike, by using the term spiritual I am talking about the part of human creatures that is something more than mere biochemistry and atoms. The part (for lack of a better word) of Jesus that wasn't in the tomb. The part of the thief on the cross that was with Jesus in Paradise the same day he died, even as his body was disposed of outside of Jerusalem. The part of the human self that in the words of N.T.Wright experiences "life after death" before an embodied "life AFTER life after death." If it helps you to call it your psychological/social/relational self that's fine with me but I'd suggest that scripture and experience teach that component of you came into the world already flawed, just as much as your physical self (and everyone else's physical self) also came into the world already flawed, less than perfect, and headed toward decay.

I realize many people don't believe that such a thing exists in addition to and after the end of physical, bodily life. However I do, and because I think the Biblical narrative also assumes as much, it seems that any Christian approach that tries to describe human brokenness while ignoring that component or simply reducing it to biological and socialized aspects, is missing something fairly important.
Karl, I believe in that "something more". However, I don't believe that it is ever separate from our physical selves - it's all part of the same thing. Or, to put it another way, our biochemistry and atoms are also part of our spiritual nature. I don't believe that scripture teaches a body/spirit dualism - that's an infection from Greek philosophy as far as I can tell. From a Jewish/early Christian viewpoint both body and spirit are nothing without the other, mere dust or wind. So when we talk about what makes us who we are, I don't think it makes any sense to talk about something coming in from the outside prior to our bodily/spiritual existence. If the spiritual "component" comes in already flawed, then why? What is that? How does that happen? Again, without more definition, it's just an empty concept.

And once again, I feel like even asking such questions really misses the point. To talk about a flaw in our nature again takes a relational problem and tries to make it an ontological problem. If sin really is defined as relational brokenness (and I believe that it should be) then we can't come into this world already sinful, because prior to entering this world we were not in relationship with anyone or anything. We couldn't have been because, unless you believe in the pre-existence of the soul (as Mormons and some Eastern religions do and the ancient Greeks did), we weren't around to have any relationships. Sin can only start when relationship starts. It's not part of our ontological makeup; and I don't see where the scripture teaches anything like that (and before you mention it, I don't think Psalm 51 counts - that's poetic hyperbole, not a basis for core doctrines).
Mike, I've read some about the differences between the Greek body/sould dualism vs. the Hebrew view(s), and about the influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity. Certainly less than you, but enough to understand what you are saying. I'm not convinced that the idea of a disembodied spirit (or whatever you want to call that "something else") after physical death is solely a product of Greek thought, even if Greek thought distorted or exaggerated a body/spirit dualism ina way that was foreign to Jewish thought. What does your line of thinking do with Jesus's statement to the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise"? Or to the state of "life after death" that comes prior to "life AFTER life after death" that N.T. Wright (who is certainly writing from within the 1st Century Jewish mindset) refers to? In the story of Jesus walking on the water, when it says the disciples were afraid that he was a ghost, was that because they had been exposed to Greek thought and no longer thought like Jews? Or what about King Saul and the medium, consulting the spirit of Samuel - regardless of what you believe was actually going on there, isn't that a pre-Greek story in which the existence of a disembodied "personal essence" of some sort post-death is assumed?

To your last question, if the body comes into existence already flawed (it is less than perfect and prone to decay even before being acted upon by pollutants, poor diet, etc.), then why would our capacity for, and inclinations in, relationship come into the world perfect rather than with a propensity toward disordered relationships?
What's On My Mind Hi Mike,

I must admit, as a born again believer, I do not understand postmodernism. Is this declaring that the thoughts of man supersede the authority of Scripture? As I understand 2Tim3:16, there are only 2 choices. Either the Bible is the perfect Word of God, or simply a lie, because it claims to be "God Breathed." Does postmodernism add a "maybe" here?

I apologize if my questions seem to indicate a negative tone. That is not my intention. I sincerely do not understand the questioning of the inerrancy of Scripture, and the claim of being a Christian, at the same time.

Thanks
These are REALLY interesting topics and I'm sure many of your regular readers would like to see the finished copy of some of your papers. Any chance they might someday appear on your web site? (In their entirety...or at least key excerpts?) Bud, a postmodern perspective isn't necessarily about questioning scripture, it's about questioning whether I, as a fallen and finite human being, ever have the ability to understand or interpret it perfectly. Even if I say that I have an inerrant scripture, I'm not willing to claim that I myself am also "without error" whenever I try to interpret it. Mike,
Thanks for your response. Maybe it is best to just agree to disagree.
Mike,
Would be curious to see that counter-imperial bibliography once it is put together. That's a "hobby" topic for me...unfortunately I have about ten of them.

Hope all is well with you guys.
Mike,

On your #3, I've had much the same thoughts. I'm especially interested to note that a lot of Baptist fundamentalists have embraced Reformed Theology within the last 10-15 years.

When I was growing up nearly all conservative Baptists - at least most of the Southern and Independent ones I knew - viewed Reformed theology as a dangerous error. They probably didn't even know the term "Arminian" but they sure knew about "free will." Now many of those same people - or their kids - are embracing Reformed theology. My loose thesis is that the fundamentalist desire for certainty and having all the right answers is a natural fit with the seeming certainty and often more intellectually robust structure of Reformed thought. That combination of fundamentalist ways of thinking with Reformed certainty and systematics, can be a pretty depressing one, summed up by this quote on a friend's Facebook page: "When a man is born he is Pelagian, when he gets saved he is an Arminian and when he understands the Bible he becomes a Calvinist."

On your #2 - I'm not convinced of the biological passing down of original sin either, but are you positing that in theory, with perfect socialization you could produce a sinless person - unselfish, perfectly loving God and others? Rather than the idea that we come into the world as "cracked eikions" from the get-go and that socialization only furthers the cracking?

Your #1 reminds me of C.S. Lewis's comments on intellectuall fashions , noting that fashions come and go in the academy just as much as they do in clothing. Seeing the errors or omissions of past scholarship is good, but does less good if it doesn't caution one about to be wary of the probable errors of the present approach too. Way too many scholars seem to think the current approach they are excited about - whatever it is - finally has it all figured out.

Lewis:

"None of us can fully escape this blindness, but we shall certainly increase it, and weaken our guard against it, if we read only modern books. Where they are true they will give us truths which we half knew already. Where they are false they will aggravate the error with which we are already dangerously ill. The only palliative is to keep the clean sea breeze of the centuries blowing through our minds, and this can be done only by reading old books. Not, of course, that there is any magic about the past. People were no cleverer then than they are now; they made as many mistakes as we. But not the same mistakes. They will not flatter us in the errors we are already committing; and their own errors, being now open and palpable, will not endanger us. Two heads are better than one, not because either is infallible, but because they are unlikely to go wrong in the same direction. To be sure, the books of the future would be just as good a corrective as the books of the past, but unfortunately we cannot get at them. "

"A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by that local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age."
Mike,

Those are 3 wonderful topics. I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on each of them.

1) I really enjoyed Dominic Crossan's "God and Empire". Is that one of your more modern sources?

2) I wonder if original sin should be understood instead as an evolutionary product of our survival mechanism passed down through millions of years of survival. To transcend original sin might mean we should become fully human and that means we live in the tension between our primal self-centeredness and our humanity (our desire to transcend our self consciousness). Maybe that also points toward "socialization" as a way to transcend self.

3) I see this trend too. How wide spread do you think this trend is?
Karl,

I think you're right on in regards to the appeal of a dogmatic Reformed theology for Baptist fundamentalists. Also, don't forget that the Baptists have their historical roots in Calvinism (specifically English Puritanism).

As for your question on #2:
"are you positing that in theory, with perfect socialization you could produce a sinless person - unselfish, perfectly loving God and others? Rather than the idea that we come into the world as "cracked eikions" from the get-go and that socialization only furthers the cracking?"

I suppose that theoretically perfect socialization could produce a sinless person, but that is a moot point since perfect socialization is clearly impossible in this broken world full of broken people. It could never actually happen.

As for #1, I totally agree with Lewis that the lenses of the past are useful for seeing the errors of our own day, though I would also emphasize that this principle works in reverse as well. When we read the past, we are also able to see their blindspots and biases.

Also, I think we're able to be more inclusive of multiple perspectives when we read both old and new. So, for instance, in my bibliography, the newer resources didn't merely contradict the older assumptions. Instead they broadened them, and showed how that were too narrow and totalizing. Older scholars were saying "the early church only had one dominant attitude towards the Empire", while the newer scholars are saying "Well yes, that was one attitude, but there were other perspectives as well."

I suppose you might say that's the difference between a modern and postmodern approach to history: the difference between one dominant meta-narrative, and multiple competing narratives coexisting. :)
Mike L,

1) I didn't use Crossan because our professor didn't want me to go as far back as Jesus and the Apostles (too much cross-over with "New Testament Studies", she wanted me to stick strictly with "church history".)

2) That's an interesting hypothesis. If you develop it into a full-blown paper (or blog post), I'd love to read it. I do think that socialization plays an important role in helping us overcome the inherent self-centeredness that we are born with as helpless and unaware infants (which I don't think is the same thing as culpable sin), and that socialization by broken people who have not out-grown their own self-centeredness will invariably perpetuated this dysfunction in future generations.

3) I think it comes in stages and degrees, and its more about moving in a particular direction than about a definable movement, so I really couldn't speculate as to numbers. However, I do think that certain leaders like Al Mohler, John MacArthur, John Piper, and Mark Driscoll, who I believe are at various stages along the path towards neo-fundamentalism are definitely growing in influence.
Hello maate great blog David Wilcox & Postmodern Theology Yes to David Wilcox and the thoughtful, poetic singer-songriter. His music along with Bruce Cockburn, Pierce Pettis, singer/songwriter/producer Mark Heard, and even Wheaton's own Harrod & Funck all formed the soundtrack for much of my mid 20's to early 30's. I still break them out from time to time. Caught In-Between Mike,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can relate. I've been in exactly the same position. When I was first exposed to the most current (liberal) Biblical scholarship I began to feel squeezed between my faith and my common sense understanding. I got over it pretty quick and now feel very comfortable with a non-literal view of the bible and a more naturalist understanding of the world. I tend to call it "real faith" as opposed to the more surreal faith I learned as a child in a literalistic religion.

I guess the big dilemma as I was working my way through this problem was that I felt the scholarship might be asking me to choose between a life of faith and a life of reason. Now, I realize that faith need not be confined to believing things that are hard to believe. I don't measure faith by the level of absurdity in what I'm willing to label as fact. Faith can be 100% reasonable and reason is not a flawed modern concept that will eventually fade away. Pre-modern people were very reasonable too, but they operated with different data than we have. I don't see post-modernity as a rejection of reason or a return to naivety, but instead I see it as simply an understanding with another few centuries of data (wisdom, stories, experiences) to add to our world view.

I have a couple of questions about what you meant when you said...

"it doesn't shake my faith at all to consider these alternative ways of understanding scripture"

When you speak of your faith in this context, do you mean your belief in the supernatural? Do you mean that a liberal (or more reasonable) reading of scripture doesn't cause you to stop holding a pre-modern supernatural world view? Or do you mean that this liberal reading gives you the ability to drop the pre-modern world view without losing your religious connections, stories and traditions? Can you unpack that a bit?
"And if the evidence supports the possibility of a supernatural occurrence, we shouldn't be so quick to rule out that interpretation of the events out of hand."

Mike,
Anything that has evidence for it is by definition not "supernatural".

In my opinion, the word "supernatural" is a bit of nonsense since anything that has a cause can be tested and investigated. There's no such thing as "natural" explanations versus "supernatural" explanations.
There are only "correct" explanations.

No matter what the claim, we can use the same methodology to test it that we use for everything else.
"it doesn't shake my faith at all to consider these alternative ways of understanding scripture"

"When you speak of your faith in this context, do you mean your belief in the supernatural? Do you mean that a liberal (or more reasonable) reading of scripture doesn't cause you to stop holding a pre-modern supernatural world view? Or do you mean that this liberal reading gives you the ability to drop the pre-modern world view without losing your religious connections, stories and traditions?"


I meant my faith as a whole, not just the supernatural component of it. But regarding the "supernatural", yes, even though I am open to "liberal" readings of scripture, I still do believe in a "supernatural" God (i.e. a transcendent Creator as opposed to the pantheist conception), in miracles, and in the possibility of predictive prophecy. These beliefs are not "premodern" or "modern" or "postmodern" IMHO. It's been a modern conceit (what C.S. Lewis calls "chronological snobbery") to think that modern science, or literary-critical interpretations of scripture, somehow makes belief in such things untenable. That's poor philosophy IMHO, and it's an unnecessary assumption to bring to a literary-critical approach to the Bible. So no, the critical scholarship does not affect my belief in the "supernatural" aspects of my faith, nor, I'm finding, much else about it. I already embraced a more flexible, less literalistic view of the Bible a long time ago. (Though, I should add, "less literalistic" does not, for me, mean "completely unhistorical", nor does it mean "demythologized" or "completely naturalistic".)
Michael (James) -

I agree with you that the natural/supernatural distinction is not a very useful one. Since I define "supernatural" as "anything that God does", then in a certain sense everything is supernatural, since, if God does exist, then she is the cause of "nature" as well.

However, in the context of my post, I was using the term "supernatural" more conventionally simply to refer to "out of the ordinary" things like miracles or predictive prophecy that we would tend to attribute to direct divine causation. I might disagree with you as to whether such events would ultimately be able to be tested by the same methodology as everything else. If God is their direct cause then that cause is ultimate inaccessible to scientific methodology. Science is a great tool for understanding many things within the created world, but science has its limits, and those are generally found at the edges of this universe. Science has no power to observe or comment on anything outside of this universe, which, if she exists, would include God.

But that's mostly a tangent since we're not talking about science, we're talking about literature and history - which are also realms where science finds its limits. The tools of history are not the same as the tools of science; nor is the discipline of history equipped to tell us about the kind of "causes" that I suspect you are referring to. For instance, when it comes to the possibility of predictive prophecy in Isaiah, neither history nor science can tell us anything about the "cause". All history can do is give us clues as to whether or not it actually happened. My argument is that we should separate that question about what happened from the question about causes, since the former is an historical one while the latter is a philosophical one. In other words, once history helps us determine what happened, then the philosophers - naturalist, supernaturalist, or whatever - can debate about what they think caused it. The problem, IMHO, is when one's philosophical presuppositions are introduced a priori, and thereby get in the way of the historical question.

(And yes, I'm equally annoyed when supernaturalists impose their assumptions on the text as well. I've read too many conservative commentaries of Isaiah that just assume that the book must contain predictive prophecy, and therefore ignore or dismiss any evidence for later authorship.)
Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. Like you, I wouldn't want to venture into "chronological snobbery". I don't look down on older views because I recognize how flawed my own view will seem one day. I'm completely open and hold any conclusions as tentative and don't even like the word "conclusions". I suspect most liberal scholars are open as well but I won't speak for them. I don't know of anyone who would suggest the bible is "completely unhistorical". The most liberal of liberal scholars find a large amount of historical data in the bible, but most recognize that even the hard factual events are told through allegorical literary techniques. For example, how Jesus' birth story was crafted to allegorically align him with Moses' escape from genocide and his birth announcement so closely aligned with Augustus Caesar. By asking "Why?" we can see the beauty of the story's literary elements.

Even hard-line atheists would agree with a basic grounding in history for these stories. That isn't the point. The main point is that we've been caught up with categories of natural and supernatural for so long (perhaps residual effects of Greek philosophical dualism?) that we stopped allowing for God to be something real. I'm not interested in making the stories less real. I'm interesting in finding more reality in them. I find them drenched in reality. They may not be factual, but I find beauty in their ability to incarnate something as abstract as God into reality for us.

I guess for me it boils down to the difference in how I now approach the text. As a conservative I would read a story and say "Wow! Did that really happen?" Now, I'd read the same story and ask "What must the author have been trying to say by writing the story that way".

I think you are hinting at a more modern approach to the texts by suggesting that their value would rely in their historical accuracy. That is exactly what led to the 2 poles of modern mistakes - literalists who bend reality to match the story and secularists who throw away all stories that are not factual. Many people, like Thomas Jefferson, reacted by ridding the bible of its best parts. The problem is that those stories rock! If we don't try to seem them as proof for the supernatural, we can then see them as powerful allegorical commentary (like the story of Jesus casting out unclean spirits as an allegorical setup for his trip to Jerusalem and protest in the temple).

I haven't been to a liberal seminary so maybe you are correct to assume this prof. might be trying to degrade scripture somehow, but you may want to give the naturalistic reading a chance to see if it opens up deeper layers of allegory and truth. I don't think we choose between history or myth. IMHO, the stories are history told through myth.

Thanks for responding. I've always enjoyed you blog and your thoughts.
This is an old thread, so I probably no one will read this, but it's such a fascinating post, I feel the need to respond, if just to work out my own response to it.

Mike:

Naturalistic assumptions about history are just that, assumptions - i.e. preconceived philosophical biases that get in the way of the more fundamental historical question of "what, in fact, happened?" The historian should make no judgment one way or the other about whether supernatural phenomenon can occur.

I'm an atheist, so my answer here may not resonate very well with you, but I would say "naturalistic assumptions" are not just like other assumptions, that can be assumed or rejected. Rather, they're necessary to practice history.

Creationists often claim that evolution and the Big Bang are based on "naturalistic assumptions" that they just want to test---and that traditional scientists, who assume that regular natural laws work all the time, are really being unscientific. This seems to me to misunderstand how science works. You can't do science unless you assume that things are going to work in a regular manner, so that your hypotheses will lead to testable predictions. If someone thinks that the fossil record is based on God just placing fossils in a paricular place without regard to any regular laws, then we can't test that, because we have no idea what sort of fossil records God would like or dislike; God might do whatever He/She/It wants, with incomprehensible motives, and so this creationist isn't making any predictions that we can falsify. On the other hand, if a biologist proposes that the fossils are based on certain regular processes, we can figure out what particular fossil patterns would result from those processes, and then go out and see if we actually get those patterns.

Some of the comments point out that things might get moved from "supernatural" to "natural," and that's true. If parapsychologists get repeatable experiments that demonstrate ESP, ESP will get classified as a regular, testable, phenomenon. But beliefs that God just did something will never be testable, because we're never going to have a framework in which we can predict precisely what God will do. That's not to say that I might not have experiences that would convince me that God exists. If God talked to me as a burning bush, I would believe in God, but unless I could reproduce that burning bush, under controlled conditions, on the demand of others, that experience would be beyond science.

As you say, history and biology differ in many ways, of course, but it seems to me that the above arguments are true of history as well. You have to assume that all events are explained by the sort of "normal" human and natural interactions, if you're going to practice history. If I think that Caesar's assassination was planned by the Egyptians, we have a regular set of principles to investigate that---we know what documents to look for, we have reasonable guesses as to what sort of things might threaten the Egyptians, etc. . . We have an idea how Egyptians are likely to respond to certain Roman actions, how Romans are likely to respond to certain Egyptian actions, and so on, because they're humans, just like us. If I think that Hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish America for the Iraq war, we have no idea what records to inspect, or how to analyze them, because we have no precise, well-agreed understanding of what motivates God, how He/She/It is likely to respond to human events, or how His/Her/It's prophets are likely to respond to hearing the word of God.

Anyway, a long response, and as I said at the start, since I'm an atheist, maybe none of this will resonate with you at all, if you see this post at all. But on the off-chance that you're reading let me make an argument that I think works from a Christian perspective. It doesn't make sense for Second Isaiah to have been written in the seventh century B.C., because not only does he talk about future events, but he give no sign that he's talking about future events. Take Isa 44:28-45:1, where he talks about Cyrus carrying out his will. If we assume that God told Isaiah that there would be a Cyrus in the future who would return the Jews to Israel, these verses would make sense to Isaiah, but would be completely incomprehensible to the Jews Isaiah was prophesizing to. The seventh century Jews would respond to these verses by saying "Huh, who's this Cyrus you're talking about?" If Isa 44:28-45:1 were really written by a seventh century prophet to seventh century Jews, then there should be verses before 44:28 explaining to the Jews that there will (using the future tense) be a Babylonian captivity, and that it will be ended by Cyrus.
A Question in Theology Class I don't get it. We were discussing the Gnostic belief that this material world is evil. A friend of mine asked why, if that's the case, don't Gnostics just commit suicide and escape this world? After we cleared that up, then she wondered why they would have sex and thereby risk bringing more people into this evil material world.

But my point in posting it was just that it was funny at the time and, as you noted, pretty much non-sensical out of context.
Book Review: Jesus for President Mike,

Thanks for the great review! I agree with your praise and also your criticism. I love Shane's passion, but I think his ideals leave out the most important part of the Jesus story. They ignore Jesus' final journey to Jerusalem that is the cornerstone to the earliest Gospel stories. Jesus' mission was not a retreat. It was an intentional confrontation with power culminating in a political march on the capitol city and a final protest in the heart of the financial district. His protest was non-violent, but no less confrontational.

Jesus could have chosen to retreat and live in the country side, but he chose to speak truth to power at risk of his own death. If we truly desire to walk in the steps of Jesus, we must realize that path led him to the heart of the nation's political and financial systems. It is no wonder that his early followers made similar trips and suffered a similar fate.
Thanks for the review. I'm going to add this book to my wish list.

Keep up the great work!
Mike,
Great post. I haven't read the book yet. Based on what you have said, I would agree that the idea of alternative community or contrast community should not be interpreted as withdrawal or separatism. I believe that we are to be a countercultural witness in the midst of empire.
PS - Congratulations to you, Julie, Emma, and Aidan! I agree grace, and I think that's mostly what Shane and Chris would say too. However, they were so negative on being involved in the structures of empire at all that I couldn't help but get the impression that they saw nothing there of redemptive value. A counter-cultural witness is good, but I think there's also a place for seeing and redeeming the good things that are already present in the dominant culture. To be exclusively counter-cultural would seem to deny the possibility that God might already be present and active within culture as well. I went to highschool and church with Chris. And I was on his e-mail list in college when he was exploring and writing a lot of these topics in Pittsburgh? I think. He had a lot of good ideas even then and is 100% legit, but I would have still voted him most likely to found a cult and go live with his followers in the wilderness. :) B"H

Hey Mike,

Thanks for posting this review and inviting a serious discussion on "our place of being" in this world.

Peace,

Shlomo
The Serenity Prayer Krista Tippett's speaking of faith is a gem. I'm a full on addict of the podcast.

The Niebuhr episode was really good. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Mmm...Good stuff indeed. God does the real heavy lifting. We need to remember that. One truth behind the serenity prayer is knowing our place in relation to God. Blue on the Bible The fact that the bible is inherently contradictory is commonly known, all those nice comments from the old testament about owning slaves and killing people for working on the sabbath. what we would like to know is whether there has been any serious study into the potential political motivations for the creation of the bible. our history is sketchy but wasn't the bible created by a Roman emperor? Great tool for keeping the rowdy peasants under control, the promise of eternal life and reward if only they are good on earth and obey the emperor....kinda funny that people are still obeying a long dead roman emperor. Undercover, you seem to have bought into the DaVinci Code version of early church history. I assure that the reality is far more complex and less conspiratorial than that. For instance, the bulk of the New Testament Canon was recognized by about AD 200, more than 100 years before Constantine and back when Christians were still being fed to the lions by Roman Emperors for the radical politically subversive nature of their teachings. We Were There First Yeah, I was thinking about this recently when someone was telling me about having read "God is Not Great." He mentioned Hitchens' criticisms of the NT and I couldn't help but grieve that Hitchens (and so many others) have missed the good our world has seen because of Jesus. And the saddest part is that I don't necessarily think it's all Hitechens' fault, because the church has largely traded the Biblical Jesus for a weak counterfeit. I've heard those comments too Mike, and at the popular level I think your description of them is accurate. But the ones I've heard most often at the academic level seem to take a different tack than what you describe. They don't necessarily suggest that emerging folks are *knowingly* regurgitating the "isms" of prior generations - as if emergers went to college, encountered the "ism" in class and then adopted and Christianized it. What I hear them suggest is that with all good intentions some emerging folks are naively, unknowingly going down dead ends that prior generations have tried and either (a) found wanting, or (b) found to have some bad, unforseen and unintended consequences.

They suggest emergers find out a bit more about the world, liberal arts, church history and biblical scholarship than they knew in the naive days of their youth, reject their old paradigms, dig into the Bible armed with their new knowledge and then act as though they are discovering the wheel, when in fact they are going down roads that are already well-travelled. Some of those roads are well-travelled by the church through the ages and need reemphasis, and others (it is argued) are well travelled detours from the wise and good path.

One of the theologians linked at a popular emerging-friendly blog has sympathies with many of emergent's concerns (thus the link to his web page), but I've heard him refer to what he sees as a lack of broad (as opposed to selective) historical awareness and theological depth among emerging writers as "the peril of the master's degree."

That criticism may not be warranted either, but it is more than just a label and is more worthy of grappling with, than the two dimensional "regurgitation" criticism that you describe.
...and the first statement in all of human history on the inherent equality of human beings regardless of race, gender, or socio-economic status, came 1700+ years before the Declaration of Independence (which of course didn't even include all of these categories), in Galatians 3:28.

It actually came earlier than that, when Solon became the Archon of Athens in 594 BC. He made the first known statements on mult-culturalism, the first statement on all humans being equal and much, much more.

In fact, we could say that Solon single-handedly created democracy. All of his laws are still vital today.

The coolest thing about him was that after he made all these revolutionary reforms, he went into exile for ten years to he wouldn't become a tyrant!
That's interesting Michael. I wasn't familiar with Solon. Do you have a link to any quotes by him on the subject? I've heard that "Masters Degree" criticism before Karl, but you know, there's something to be said for a Masters Degree education as well. I.e. there's something to be said for being able to look at the world broadly and through the lens of multiple disciplines and perspectives. I know too many PhD's who tend to know an awful lot about their one area of specialty, but seem to have lost the ability to integrate this insight with other branches of learning. I think this is one of the major pitfalls of our Modern academic system that tries to break knowledge into all kinds of discrete and artificial categories. I've always been a fan of interdisciplinary studies and integrated learning; and even as I head back to grad school to get my own PhD in Religion and Church History, I'm really hoping to integrate ideas from many different disciplines. Not just history but sociology, politics, cultural studies, theology, ethics, economics, etc. I heartily agree with you there, Mike. That was one of my frustrations as I looked at PhD programs, too. My own post-grad-school "self education" has been broad and eclectic, and I hated the narrowing to a tiny sub-discipline that seemed to be the norm in PhD programs. There's a Boswell quote, from his Life of Johnson, that hits on this. I'll try to find it later tonight.

The guy who I heard voice that criticism though, is not "that kind" of a PhD and is himself a fairly integrated guy. He's a theologian and church historian, but he approaches things in a pretty multidisciplinary way. He does it with PhD level breadth and depth though, not master's. So at least in his case, the criticism wasn't coming from one of those narrow PhD's who knows nothing beyond his narrow subspecialty, but from someone who is for many of us kind of a model of how you'd hope a Christian PhD would approach and use his education.

I know you are frustrated by unfair criticism of the emerging church; by being misunderstood and labelled and mischaracterized. But are there any of these criticisms that you think have some merit and are worth attending to? What are your concerns - not just "that we might get co-opted by the system and sell out to the man" but concerns about postmodern Christianity and emergent itself?

For example, Rob Bell has been self-aware enough to acknowledge basically "hey, I realize we are probably overreacting to a pendulum swing that went too far in one direction, and we are probably swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction." (my paraphrase). Do you have any similar thoughts?
Found the quote:

He might, perhaps, have studied more assiduously; but it may be doubted, whether such a mind as his was not more enriched by roaming at large in the fields of literature, than if it had been confined to any single spot. The analogy between body and mind is very general, and the parallel will hold as to their food, as well as any other particular. The flesh of animals who feed excursively, is allowed to have a higher flavour than that of those who are cooped up. May there not be the same difference between men who read as their taste prompts, and men who are confined in cells and colleges to stated tasks?
No Karl, I'm afraid I don't really have any of those sorts of critiques that you're asking for. There are all sorts of cautions I might give to my fellow emerging travelers along the way, but you seem to want some specific criticism about what I think we're in danger of leaving behind. I just don't think it works that way. Each one of us is on a different journey and have left behind different things and have embraced different things. Some people are still hanging onto things that I wish they'd let go of, and others are casting off things I don't feel any need to be rid of. So I can't just give a blanket critique of emergents, because none of us are at exactly the same place with any of this.

I guess if anything, I'm just afraid that people will feel too inhibited to follow God where she's leading them on the journey in the first place.
No Mike, my question wasn't really that narrow. Cautions for your fellow emerging travellers would be interesting and refreshing.

Otherwise to suggest that no, none of the many criticisms of this movement (emerging) and community (emergent) that I am a part of have any merit, sounds a little scary to me.
The problem is not that they don't have merit, the problem is that they are coming from people who want to stand on the outside of a conversation and lob grenades at people they are not in direct relationship with. And the problem is that they tend to be blanket critiques that perhaps apply to some people but not to others, which again is why you need to be in relationship and part of the conversation if you want to critique. You can't just say "all you emergents are wrong because..." You have to be more specific. If you're part of a conversation then it's possible to say "I disagree with you Brian (or Mike or Julie or Tony or Doug or Spencer or Scot or whoever) on X issue."

And finally, just to speak personally, but while I have my own critiques of some of my fellow emerging folk, quite honestly, none of them tend to be very similar to the "many criticisms" you're probably thinking of. I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with most of those critics. I suppose in the interest of fairness I ought to be able to say "well, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle" but to be perfectly honest, I just can't. I think they are just flat out wrong. Whether it's Driscoll's opinions on women, or Piper's opinions on substitutionary atonement, or Carson's opinions on postmodernism, or whatever, I just don't agree. It would be misleading of me to say "well, you know, they have a point".
Mike,

Following this conversation; good one though I do think some generalizations apply ... but I've had the microphone for those.

One issue I'd like to see more of us address, mostly because it is so pervasive in much of what we think on justice issues, is a thoroughgoing theory of the economy at work in our critique.

If I may make a suggestion to you for your PhD work -- and this in public of all places -- integrating economic theory into your PhD work on religion and culture could be a learning experience for you and a dynamic core to your work that could shed light on lots of justice issues.

Anyway, a bit of a rabbit trail away from what you are doing on this post. I do think there are some serious biblical frameworks for many justice issues that are not actually derived from things like socialism and the like. The sad thing is that many Christians don't know those biblical frameworks -- unless they've read folks like Sider or Hauerwas or others -- so they will accuse by using modern theories.

Now a very subtle pushback because I think you yourself have clarified it well: to call yourself "progressive" lets the labelers define what you are, and I don't know that "progressive" is the best term for your views. What do you think?
Thanks for your thoughts Scot. And yes, there are some good biblical foundations for a Christian view of economics. In fact, I don't know anyone who seems to be taking their opinions on the matter directly from any kind of socialist theory. I hear that kind of critique mainly from those who are too unimaginative to consider that just because one criticizes trickle-down capitalism that doesn't mean the only other alternative is full-blown socialism.

(Though I should also say that I think we need to stop treating "socialism" like such a dirty word all the time. Some socialism isn't bad. We've had socialized education in America almost since the beginning and I don't hear too many people complaining about that. And personally I think socialized health care might not be such a bad idea either.)

As for "progressive", I just don't think there are any good terms out there yet to describe me and other Christians like me. I use "progressive" only because it is subtly different from and provokes slightly less hostility than "liberal", and it carries similar connotations as the word "emerging", i.e. a sense of moving forward. But if you have a better word I'd love to hear it. At any rate it's too cumbersome to go around calling myself a "post-Religious Right, anti-Imperial Christian who is concerned about social justice, creation-care, peacemaking, and poverty among many other things".
Mike ...
I think in all fairness, the critique you're talking about (I've heard it a million times from within academia) is that the emerging church writers speak on these issues of social justice, Jesus and the gospel/kingdom of God, the church, modernity etc.. without a sense of all the diaogue and histiory of theological engagement that has gone on regarding these issues for almost thirty years in regards to evangelicalism, and eighty ninety years in 19th 20the century theology. It comes off therefore, a bit naive, retracing the same theological moves without awareness of the interaction, practical lessons an theological lessons already learned. The best part of what can be offered within theology as an academic discpline (and there is plenty bad about it) is that it is a discplined acadmic conversation that keeps tract of the ongoing learnings and progressions within the history of the conversation. In some ways, emerging authors seem to be oblivious to the advancements and mistakes learned from this ongoing conversation.
peace ...thanks for your blog ... its good stuff ..
Hey Dave,

That's an interesting critique which may or may not be accurate, but that's not really what I was referring to. In fact, I wasn't even referring to criticism of the "emerging church" per se. My focus was broader, including any "progressive" Christians, not just emergents. And the criticism I was referring to were those who want to dismiss our politics as "merely" Marxist, or liberal, or Democrat, or whatever. That's rather different than your critique about not being historically aware.

And quite honestly I didn't have academics in mind when I wrote this (except for maybe Scot when he claims that we're basically just Democrats). I was primarily thinking of those blog trolls who show up in my comments to call me a Marxist whenever I use the word "oppressed" (for instance, check out the third comment on this post). I was also thinking of Andrew Jones when he recently accused Brian McLaren of being enamored of liberation theology in his new book and Brian called him on it, pointing out that he hardly references liberation theologians at all.

In that light, your critique is almost the flip side of the one I'm responding to here. The critics I'm thinking of are saying "you guys are too influenced by this other stuff", and I'm saying we're not, in fact we've hardly read some of it. And of course your critique is then "well maybe you should read it because it's all been said before". Seems like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, eh?
Good topic for conversation - and good conversation. I am in the throes of finishing my dissertation. At the ASHE conference this past fall a former prof. from MIT told me this good advice - getting your dissertation through is a political issue. Save your best work for after you finish it. Somewhat cynical, but rather realistic.

Regarding the issue of the origins of being progressive, I offer this little piece from Gloria Reuben's text The Making of the Modern University - I think this captures some of the root of the more recent debates:

"Educational reformers eased the tension between the desire for moral training and their anxiety about religious oppression by adopting the distinction between theology and religion. They identified denominations as the institutional counterpart to theology and as the true cause of repression in the colleges, ans asserted that universities, independent of church control, could truly be free religious institutions (p. 77)."

The issue in in what is regulative of legitimate forms of knowledge and morality. The late 19th century saw higher education eschew dogmatic boundaries in order to rethink these conditions of legitimacy.
One other thing Dave regarding your own criticism. You yourself are part of the emerging church conversation. Would you consider yourself uninformed and oblivious to the "ongoing theological conversation" on these topics over the past century? Do you think Scot is? Brian reads a lot, do you think he is unaware of the history of the social gospel or liberation theology, or Hauerwas? Tony is finishing up his PhD. Do you think he's uninformed? Was Stan Grenz? John Franke? Brian Walsh? Tom Wright? Phyllis Tickle has lived through most of it, is she uninformed when she says something qualitatively new is happening?

In other words, do you think this critique is actually accurate or is it just another strawman?
Thanks for your comment drew. I confess though that I didn't quite follow your train of thought. In what way is your quote related to the origin of being progressive? And more specifically, of being a progressive Christian of the sort that has arisen more recently? If you could expand on your comments that would be much appreciated. Forgive my density. OK ... I think I get what you're saying. and it's an interesting take which I'll mull over and post on myself because I think it's really important. and just for the record, I think that there are alot of well read emerging church authors ... I consider Brian McLaren extremely well read more so than the average academic (myself included). Nonethelss, those people who gather at AAR or SoCE or Theology Conferences ... talk in these ways .. and I agree with some of their observations ... the question is why? based on what? I do think the emerging church movement could be helped if its more popular authors engaged the debates in these terms. Of course they wouldn't dsell a many boosk (wink wink). Something for us all to talk about ... I'm making this case on my next post on Brian I'm about to put up over at reclaimingthemission.com.
Peace
ooooopa .,. that last post under the name Rae was by me, David Fitch. My wife's name is rae. Sorry .. Mike, I've always appreciated your straightforwardness:

"I don't care if following Jesus makes me sometimes look like a "liberal" or a "Democrat" even. I'm simply trying to follow where he leads."

When I read this, I start thinking it's time for all ideologies -- even some which have become entrenched within the institutional church - to yield to the moral authority of living as Christ lived. If persecution results -- especially persecution from the religious elite -- then we may be closer to the Master than we realize.

Now, regarding something David Fitch said:

...emerging church writers speak on these issues of social justice, Jesus and the gospel/kingdom of God, the church, modernity etc.. without a sense of all the diaogue and histiory of theological engagement that has gone on regarding these issues for almost thirty years in regards to evangelicalism, and eighty ninety years in 19th 20the century theology.

David, I think I understand the value for emergents (and others) to know something of the history of theological/philosophical dialog regarding these issues, and I agree. What I find myself wondering, though, is whether there isn't something to be said about the value of contributions that sometime come out of left-field, and from those who do not have that "history" as pre-existing "screen" or point-of-view? Or, I suppose what I may actually be asking myself is, is there a place in a culture that seems to embrace an open-source paradigm, for "academics" - with their valuable "histories", and non-academics - with their refreshing naiveté, to truly value each other's contribution when it comes to important matters like justice, the redistribution of wealth, planet-care, etc.?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, David (or Mike's or Karl's or Scot's or anyone else's for that matter). Thanks.
Mike,

Sure. The issue that this piece raises is in terms of education it was the university's full inclusion of scientific reasoning at the expense of dogmatic non-negotiables that truly forced theology to find some way to negotiate intellectual boundaries that were simply not there before. So religion had to find out how to engage in an open dialogue with other disciplines. It is at this point that we find the development of theology in the US form two tracks: one went the direction of evangelicalism that retained the devotional sense of Scripture, and the liberal/progressive which explored different methods to weave modern scientific discourse into theology. The Scopes trial is where this split and then a further split in evangelicalism where fundamentalism broke off came to a head. Hope that clarifies... D.G. Hart's book That Old Time Religion traces some of this trajectory nicely as well. I didn't really finish the previous thought as my boys were going ballistic ;-)
I think the accusations of "swallowing" ideology without any thought is just projection. Drew - thanks for the clarification.

Donna - LOL, excellent observation. Though I will point out that I sometimes get this same critique from atheists as well when they encounter my "emerging", "progressive" approach to faith. They inaccurately accuse me of simply trying to twist or water down my faith to make it fit with more liberal ideas that I've encountered elsewhere. What they don't realize (and often refuse to believe when I tell them - Darryl for example) is that I didn't come to these views through an encounter with "liberal" ideas that challenged my faith. I came to these views by digging in deeper to my own faith.
Mike,

I have had the same experience. The phrase "they" have used (mainly in the Atheist v. Christian Google group) is, Sure, when you can't give a reasonable answer, make s#$% up.

Many atheists have a hard time dealing with progressive Christianity because it does not fit into the strawmen of Dawkins, et. al. regarding Christian belief.
Blog Against Theocracy: We Invented Separation Great post. It really irks me when people show those videos in Sunday School trying to "prove" from manuscript evidence that America was really (secretly) a Christian nation. It is hogwash and is simply bad historical scholarship. Thanks for this well informed piece. It's pretty easy to poke holes in some conservative notions about Christian America, school prayer and the like.

I think it's harder to explore the parameters of separation of church and state, and just what is (or should be) meant by that phrase.

Have you read Yale professor Stephen Carter's "The Culture of Disbelief"? Carter isn't an evangelical nor always a conservative, but he argues that the concept of separation of church and state has been expanded beyond what was ever intended and indeed, beyond what is healthy for the nation. From a review:

"The most powerful message of The Culture of Disbelief is that religion has been trivialized in America. By religion, professor Carter is referring to any worshipping group that believes in a supernatural God and that actually makes demands on its members, in this life, based on its beliefs about the nature and character of God. He notes that "More and more, our culture seems to take the position that believing deeply in the tenets of one's faith represents a kind of mystical irrationality, something that thoughtful, public-spirited American citizens would do better to avoid. If you must worship your God, the lesson runs, at least have the courtesy to disbelieve in the power of prayer; if you must observe your sabbath, have the good sense to understand that it ...is just like any other day of the week." According to Mr. Carter, this development is both unfortunate and dangerous to our religious freedoms in America.

This bias has encouraged some of our public institutions to accept religious prejudice as neutrality . . . According to Carter, "The consistent message of modern American society is that whenever the demands of one's religion conflict with what one has to do to get ahead, one is expected to ignore the religious demands and act...well...rationally."

". . . How have these founding ideas about church and state been applied recently in our society? Not very well according to Mr. Carter. The Supreme Court, whose duty it is to interpret the Constitution, has arrived at something called the Lemon test, an appropriate name because it is nearly impossible to apply. It includes three criteria for a statute to satisfy the requirements of the First Amendment. First, the law must have a secular purpose; second, it must neither advance nor inhibit religion; and finally, it must not cause excessive state entanglement with religion.

It is apparent to many that this ruling by the Court works in favor of those trying to build an impenetrable wall between religious belief and our government. Professor Carter notes that if this ruling is taken seriously one would have to question the legality of religiously motivated civil rights legislation. Another question is whether or not one can act in a manner that neither advances nor inhibits religion? For instance, does the government advance religion if it grants tax relief to parents who send their children to private schools? If so, does denying the tax relief inhibit religion by causing parents to be taxed twice for their children's education?

Carter notes that even the Court has had difficulty in applying this set of standards, mainly because of the way it has defined what is meant by a secular purpose. The Court often focuses on the motivation for a piece of legislation, rather than its political purpose. In other words, the criteria that many would like the Court to use in determining secular purpose would be to ask if the legislation is pursuing a legitimate goal of government or not, rather than inquiring into the religious motivation of the bill's sponsors. As Professor Carter writes, "The idea that religious motivation renders a statute suspect was never anything but a tortured and unsatisfactory reading of the [establishment] clause.... What the religion clauses of the First Amendment were designed to do was not to remove religious values from the arena of public debate, but to keep them there."
Hi Mike. May I ask how hold you are? Because when I was a teenager and going to church in the 1970s, churches -- even evangelical and fundamentalist ones -- fully supported the separation of church and state. It wasn't until the 1980s and when I moved to the south, that I noticed churches and Christian groups starting to get involved in politics. Before that, it was considered unspiritual. "Give unto Caesar," and all that. The church was supposed to be unsullied from the world, and politics was seen as something anathema.

In the 1980s, the emphasis seemed to move from changing individual lives through the saving grace of Jesus to changing society through politics.

Just my observations.

writerdd
Hi Donna,

I was born in 1978, so yeah, by the time I became politically aware, evangelicals were already known for being very politically active. I grew up listening to James Dobson and Focus on the Family on the radio (my mom's choice, not mine) and can recall plenty of the boycotts and political crusades they were constantly advocating in the '80s and '90s.

And you're right, the mid-70's and 80's were when it started changing. Most sociologists and historians will tell you that it was the rise of Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority and their help in getting Ronald Reagan elected that really kicked off evangelical involvement in politics. Falwell was really an innovator in this regard. Prior to him, as you said, most evangelicals tended to eschew political involvement. Some historians will go so far as to say that the rise of the Religious Right and the entre of evangelicals into the political sphere is the single most important development in American politics over the past 30 years.
Sadly that's true. This country has been going down the tubes since Reagan. Sigh. But that's off topic, I guess. :-)

Have you read Thy Kingdom Come by Randall Balmer? I agree with almost everything he has to say.
I've not read that one yet, but it's on my list. Definitely recommended. I gave a copy to my born-again mother and she recently asked me for a few more copies to pass around to people at her church. Amen to that.

Recent Reads

  • The Uses of Haiti
    by Paul Farmer




  • Putting Away Childish Things
    by Marcus Borg



  • An Unbroken Agony: Haiti, from Revolution to the Kidnapping of a President by Randall Robinson

  • Haiti in Focus: A Guide to the People, Politics, and Culture by Charles Arthur

  • Mind & Emergence: From Quantum to Consciousness
    by Philip Clayton

  • Namaah's Curse by Jacqueline Carey



  • Watchmen by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons




Friend's Sites
  • onehandclapping
    -Julie Clawson

  • fluctuating certainty
    -Karen Gerber

  • Danno's Dangerous Mind
    -Dan Horwedel

  • T(r)oy Marbles
    -Troy Cady

  • Anglobaptist
    -Tripp Hudgins

  • The Thinkulum
    -Andy Culbertson

  • A Little Off Key
    -Amy Toornstra

  • unconventionalwisdom
    -Jen Pare

  • (Not So) Straight from Seminary
    -Brandy Daniels

  • MattTheTroll
    -Matt Cavanaugh

  • Love is the most excellent way
    -Helen Mildenhall

  • Disonanz Cognitif
    -Derek Berner

  • Wild Rumpus
    -Rebecca Murphy

  • This Just In...
    -Inouye Family

  • Discovering Pathways
    -Laurel Dixon

  • Postmodern Questions
    -Thomas Just

  • Clawson Family Blog



Classic Pensees
  • - What is the Emerging Church?
  • - The Converging Church
  • - How to Read the Bible
  • - Did the Exodus Really Happen?
  • - Hell Q&A
  • - Three Approaches to Scripture
  • - Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
  • - Emma at the Petting Zoo
  • - Biblical Support for Women in Ministry
  • - What is Sin?
  • - What Good is the Bible?
  • - The God of Thin Places
  • - Immigration: Real Solutions
  • - What is Postmodernism?
  • - V for Vendetta
  • - What is Justice?
  • - Roots
  • - If It's Good Enough for Kids...
  • - Aslan Is Not Jesus
  • - Community Transformation
  • - Theology is Like Designing a House
  • - When I Am Weak...
  • - Why I'm Not Patriotic
  • - What is Truth?
  • - What this "postmodern" journey is all about...
  • - The Relational Nature of Sin
  • - Caught In-Between
  • - Three Routes of Escape
  • - What If God Really Existed?
  • - A Tale of Two Churches
  • - Cautions for Emergents, Part 1
  • - Cautions for Emergents, Part 2
  • - We Were There First
  • - Take NAFTA for instance...
  • - Let Them Come
  • - A New Perspective on Jesus
  • - Was Jesus Political?
  • - Contextualization or Isolation: Then and Now
  • - A Tale of Two Movements
  • - Abortion: Talking Past Each Other
  • - Epistemology or Ethics
  • - Why Faith?
  • - A Failure of Compassion
  • - Parables Aren't Always About God
  • - Do You Have a Soul?
  • - Is it all just trivial?
  • - What about the Disturbing Parts of the Bible?
  • - Into the Woods
  • - American Exceptionalism or Imperialism?
  • - Why Believe In God?
  • - Owning "Emergent"

Previous entries
  • Are Emergents Merely Liberal?
  • Liberalism, Evangelicalism and Emergence
  • The Wild Goose as a Sign of Hope
  • Blog Hiatus... Obviously
  • Review of Marcus Borg's "Putting Away Childish Thi...
  • Favorite Austin Eats
  • Busy Summer
  • Escobar on New Men and Social Change
  • Walker Cleaveland's "Brief History of Presbymergent"
  • More Conferences


Friend of Emergent Village

Join the Emergent/C Mailing List
Email:












The Gross National Debt



Locations of visitors to this page

Recommended

Julie's Book!
Events


Big Tent Christianity
Raleigh, NC
Sept 8-9


Emergent Village Theological Conversation
Atlanta, GA
Nov 1-3

Sites
  • - Emerging Women
  • - Emerging Parents
  • - Emergent Village
  • - The Ooze
  • - Next-Wave Ezine
  • - NT Wright Page
  • - Disassemblance
  • - Dylan's Lectionary Blog
  • - Mustard Seed Associates
  • - Everything Must Change
  • - Via Christus Comm. Church
  • - up/rooted
  • - Wedding Pastors USA
  • - Shieldmaiden Designs
  • - Fifty Percenters

Blogs
  • God's Politics
  • Jesus Creed
  • Friendly Atheist
  • Reclaiming the Mission
  • Emerging CGGC
  • Out of Ur
  • Theolog
  • tallskinnykiwi
  • John Armstrong
  • Paradoxology
  • Bob.Blog
  • Kingdom Grace
  • Frenetic Peace
  • Decompressing Faith
  • iamjoshbrown
  • the carnival in my head
  • Tony Jones
  • Empire Remixed
  • brianmclaren.net
  • Revolution in Jesusland
  • With/out God

Political Stuff
  • - Sojourners
  • - New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good
  • - Progressive Christian Alliance
  • - Green Party
  • - Global Exchange
  • - The One Campaign to Make Poverty History

Books
  • A New Kind of Christianity by Brian McLaren


  • The Secret Message of Jesus by Brian McLaren



  • Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell



  • The Challenge of Jesus by N.T. Wright



  • The Gospel in a Pluralist Society by Lesslie Newbigin



  • A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren



  • Church Re-Imagined by Doug Pagitt



  • Traveling Mercies by Anne Lamott



  • Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis



  • Fear & Trembling by Soren Kierkegaard



  • Messy Spirituality by Mike Yaconelli



  • God's Politics by Jim Wallis



Articles
  • - What is the Emerging Church?
  • - Recommended Reading for the Emerging Church
  • - Emerging Church Resources
  • - Obama on Faith & Politics
  • - Mars Hill's Directions
  • - Profoundly Disturbed on the 4th of July
  • - 10 Key Values of the Green Party
  • - NT Wright on Penal Substitution
  • - Walter Wink on The Myth of Redemptive Violence
  • - Mark Twain's War Prayer
  • - Rebuttals to Richard Dawkins
  • - Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican

Music

  • U2 - How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb



  • Green Day - American Idiot



  • David Wilcox - Into the Mystery



  • Caedmon's Call - Share the Well



  • Passion: Hymns Ancient and Modern



  • Jake Armerding




  • Tourniquet - Vanishing Lessons


Viewing

  • The Lord of the Rings



  • Star Wars Trilogy



  • Fight Club



  • Garden State



  • Saved!



  • Joan of Arcadia




  • Magnolia



  • Donnie Darko



  • High Fidelity



  • The Mission



  • Futurama



  • The Simpsons


Emerging Churches
  • Mosaic - Los Angeles, CA

  • Vintage Faith Church - Santa Cruz, CA

  • Church of Jesus Christ, Reconciler - Chicago, IL

  • Wicker Park Grace - Chicago, IL

  • The Emmaus Community - Chicago Heights, IL

  • Fusion Church - Lake Zurich, IL

  • Life on the Vine - Long Grove, IL

  • Mars Hill - Grandville, MI

  • Waters Edge - Hudsonville, MI

  • Threads Church - Kalamazoo, MI

  • Solomon's Porch - Minneapolis, MN

  • Oasis Madrid - Madrid, Spain

  • Mosaic - Austin, TX

  • Vineyard Community Church - Shoreline, WA

Friday, September 18, 2009
Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right
I'm likely overgeneralizing here, but why does it seem like whenever I point out what I see as the bad behavior of conservatives (whether theological or political) one of the first responses I get is usually "Well, your side does it too!" I can't recall how many times I've said something here about the close-mindedness of evangelicals for instance (which after all, is my own tribe), only to have someone respond, "Yeah, well, mainline liberals aren't any better." Or the number of times I've posted something about the dirty politics of the Republicans on Facebook, only to have someone reply, "Well, the Democrats do the same thing."

There are a number of things that bother me about this response:

1) It doesn't actually deal with the issue at hand. It's an evasion tactic that shifts the focus of debate from whether or not said behavior is actually acceptable, to "who started it". As such, it seems like basically a way of avoiding responsibility for one's own actions. So what if the other side does it? Does that thereby excuse your side from doing it too? Do two wrongs make a right? It's especially ironic when conservatives do this. I mean, aren't they supposed to be all about "personal responsibility", not just passing the buck?

2) The "your side does it too" response falsely assumes that I am actually on the "other side". This is not a safe assumption, whether theologically or politically. For instance, while I may be "post-evangelical", evangelicalism is still my heritage and the tribe I most easily identify with, so when I point the finger at the short-comings of evangelicals, it's not pointed at "them" so much as "us". And to be sure, I'm definitely not standing on the side of the mainline "liberals" either. Just because I've moved somewhat beyond evangelicalism doesn't mean I've therefore become a mainliner. That has become abundantly clear to me the more time I spend at my mainline Presbyterian seminary. I respect, love, and am intrigued by my mainline brothers and sisters here, but in many ways I still feel like an outsider looking in. So when folks tell me that "the mainliners do it too", my first thought is "Great, so what? I'm not a mainliner so what does that have to do with me?"

Likewise with politics, just because I no longer identify with the Republicans (though at one point in my life I was, literally, a card-carrying member) doesn't mean I therefore am a Democrat. I'm just as happy to criticize their antics as well (as I did, for instance, just the other day when I posted a Facebook complaint about how the Dems need to just let this Joe Wilson thing just drop.) Thus, when folks respond "The Dems do it too!" again my response is "Yeah? So what? They suck too. But shouldn't you be worried about your own side?"

Of course, I'm sure some might wonder why, if I don't consider myself either conservative or liberal in either of these spheres, why my critiques are usually directed primarily at the conservative side (which, I'll freely admit, they typically are). The answer is because, as I said above, the conservative side of things is where I come from and what I know. I can critique evangelicals because in some ways I still am one. And I can criticize Republicans because not too long ago I was one. However, not having ever been a mainliner, nor a devoted Democrat, I have a harder time pointing out their faults simply because I'm not as familiar with them. Indeed, it feels somewhat unfair and inappropriate for me to criticize them without fully understanding them. It's the whole "nobody better criticize my momma except me" thing. When you're part of (or have been part of) the family, you have a right to point out its faults. But when you're an outsider (and always have been), one has an obligation to understand before critiquing. (Which is one of the reasons I'm here at a mainline Seminary - in order to understand what makes mainliners tick so that I can better understand the critiques of my mainline Emergent friends.)

Anyhow, I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post, though of course it would be extremely ironic if the response to it was "well, liberals use this same evasion tactic too!" So let me be the first to say it, yes of course they do it too, and more than that, I'm sure I've done it too at times - I'm certainly not perfect. So why don't we all commit to dealing with the actual issues from now on, and not try to avoid seeing them in our own side (whichever side that is) by only ever pointing them out in the other. Let's all agree that "well, your side does it too", is never a valid counter-argument, especially when you haven't yet dealt with the fact that your own side is also doing it.

Labels: politics, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 5:27 PM | Permalink | 16 comments
Thursday, July 30, 2009
Is Democracy Compatible with Christianity?
I've been reading Mark Noll's The Old Religion in a New World recently, and he cites the following quotation by a 19th century American Catholic, Orestes Brownson, which I found interesting:
"Catholicity is theoretically compatible with democracy..., but practically, there is, in my judgment, no compatibility between them. According to Catholicity all power comes from above and descends from high to low; according to democracy all power is infernal, is from below, and ascends from low to high."
I can certainly see how this issue would be a problem for Catholic Christians, most of whom would agree with Brownson's assertion that power descends from high to low, even if they don't necessarily make the connection that this thereby validates a hierarchical political order (from God to Pope to King to the People) as much as a hierarchical spiritual one. However, I think there are probably many other Christians besides just Catholics that would likewise agree with the basic premise that power and authority descends from high to low, from God to human authorities, and thus might recognize a conflict between their faith and the basic premise of democracy. On the surface it seems a persuasive argument. After all, most Christians, I think, would affirm that all power ultimately comes from God.

However, it occurs to me that affirming God as the source of power and authority does not necessarily imply anything about its direction, whether ascending or descending. Indeed, if what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1 about God choosing the lowly, the foolish, and the weak things of this world, and what he says in Philippians 2 about Christ giving up his power and condescending to the weakness of humanity is true, then one could argue that God-given power does not filter down from high to low among human beings, but rather that it begins with the lowest, the least, and the common. In that sense, God's power is very compatible with the essence of democracy: the idea that legitimate power derives from the will of the governed - those on the bottom of the social pyramid - not from the will-to-power of those on top. God empowers the weak, not the strong - those on the bottom, not on top. Power, in God's kingdom, descends all the way down, so that only then can it begin to filter back up.

Not being Catholic, I can't say whether this conception of power is compatible with "Catholicity", though I would think that it would have much in common with the kenotic theology of Saint Francis for instance. However, I do think it is a legitimate and profoundly Christian conception.

Labels: politics, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 6:39 PM | Permalink | 2 comments
Sunday, May 10, 2009
Tony Jones on why it matters that Jesus REALLY rose.
Tony has some good thoughts up about why he doesn't like the "package deal" among liberal Christians, where it is assumed that if you support GLBT rights (as Tony does, as do I) and other similar causes, you must therefore also reject the historical, physical reality of the Resurrection of Jesus (which Tony does not, nor do I). He writes:
Why is that important? Because I'm a real person. Because the people to whom I have ministered in Jesus' name are real persons. We're not hypotheses, fables, or legends. And we need real healing, all of us. While our realities may be largely socially constructed, we have real DNA, real physical, material properties.

Thus, since the resurrection of Jesus is his defeat of death, evil, and grief, it's important to me that it really happened. Without a resurrected Jesus, Christianity is impotent. (Exhibit A: liberal Christianity) And I don't mean a Jesus who was "resurrected" in the Disciples' hearts, and in my heart. I mean a real resurrection in the space-time continuum by a physical being known as Jesus of Nazareth, as 99.99% of Christians for the last two milennia have believed.
Read the whole post here.

Labels: theology, Tony Jones

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 10:52 PM | Permalink | 6 comments
Monday, April 20, 2009
"Eye for an Eye" as an Expression of Social Justice
I found this interpretation unique and compelling:
What is unique in the Hasidic approach to reconciliation is that it points the way to seeing justice and love as necessary complements of each other rather than as alternatives between which one must choose... The large majority of people in our culture hold the distorted view that the God of the Old Testament is a harsh and wrathful God in contrast to the loving and merciful God of the New... An "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is not the expression of a vengeful God but a primitive statement of basic social democracy in which no [one] is held of greater worth than another, because each is created in the image of God... Throughout all history, indeed, the natural inequality of man has justified razing a whole city to revenge the murder of one privileged man. Countless others have been exterminated with impunity because they were slaves or serfs or members of an "inferior race." "An eye for an eye" is a fundamental conception of social justice.

~ Maurice Friedman, "Hasidism and the love of enemies" in Peace is the Way

Labels: social justice, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 9:58 AM | Permalink | 4 comments
Tuesday, April 07, 2009
Other Christianities
I still don't have a lot of time to blog, so instead I'm going to re-post (with some modifications & updating) a comment I made in response to a question about alternative Christianities in the early centuries of the church (e.g. Gnosticism, Docetism, Arianism, etc.) and why "orthodox" Nicene Christianity eventually won out. I've been studying this stuff even more thoroughly in recent seminary classes (especially my "Early Church and Roman Society" class where we're actually reading a lot of the primary texts from way back then), so I have even more insight to this than I did then, though for the most part what I said has simply been confirmed.

Anyway, based on these studies, my feeling is that the prominence or legitimacy of alternative early Christianities is sometimes over exaggerated. I've often heard it presented as if groups like the various types of Gnostics or their collections of books were merely alternate but equally legitimate interpretations of the Jesus tradition - as if the difference between them and what became orthodox Christianity was no more significant than the difference between say, Methodists and Baptists.

In reality however, many of these sects were not just alternate Christianities, but really radically different religious belief systems that merely borrowed certain Christian texts and terminology and combined them with other mystical philosophies or religions. For instance, when I read the Nag Hammadi texts I am struck by their utter dissimilarity from anything you find in the Hebrew scriptures or the canonical New Testament writings. The closest analogy I can find is the difference between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity these days (though even that's not perfect since even the Mormons are probably closer to mainstream Christianity than most of the Gnostics were). Maybe an even better analogy would be some of the New Age-y cults out there that try to paint Jesus as some type of Higher Consciousness guru or swami, but with almost zero connection to the Jesus of history.

The other point to remember is that many of these early sects are much later developments. While all of the canonical gospels and the letters of Paul, John, and Peter can easily be shown to have been written in the first century, and usually within a generation or two of Jesus' ministry; most of the Gnostic gospels and other non-canonical texts cannot be shown to be any earlier than the mid to late second century (i.e. over 150 after Jesus) and most from he third or fourth century. It is for this reason primarily - i.e. the historical proximity to Jesus and the first apostles - that the canonical writings were preferred by the early church and were listed as such by many early Christian writers.

Of course, groups like the Gnostics, whose theology was so far different from orthodox Christianity as to be a different religion entirely, are somewhat different than early Christian groups like the Arians, Nestorians, or Copts (to name just a few) who were not outside of the mainstream of the Christian church, but who had differing ways of understanding the divinity and humanity of Christ. While I wouldn't say that these differences are unimportant, I would say that the disagreements between these groups were more akin to the denominational differences we have today, than they were to the radical differences between gnostics and Christians.

So why did the Nicene view triumph? I'm not entirely sure. There is the traditional answer, which is that it is the correct view, so the Holy Spirit directed the church to accept it.

Then there is the cynical, DaVinci code type answer, which is that political pressures by Constantine and powerful bishops conspired to suppress alternative views. While there is some truth to the fact that political interests had some influence over the process (especially in regards to the Emperor's desire for uniformity among Christians), this answer also conveniently ignores the facts that 1) Constantine himself preferred Arianism, and 2) that there really weren't any such thing as "politically powerful" bishops at the time of Nicaea, as Christianity had only recently gone from being a persecuted minority religion to being at least permitted (though not yet officially endorsed) by the Edict of Milan.

Personally I take a different view than either of these, which is simply that this is how the church decided things back then, through these sorts of ecumenical councils, and this is what they decided. There was a lot of argument and disagreement but in the end they reached a statement that most, if not all, could agree to. In fact, much of what was agreed on at Nicea (and at later councils like Chalcedon) was a kind of both/and compromise position that did its best to reconcile varying opinions. Since almost all currently existing churches today are descended from those who accepted the creed formulated at Nicaea, that statement is still held in high regard today. Though I suppose if someone wanted to make an argument that the Arians or Nestorians or whomever actually had a better way of looking at the dual nature of Christ than Nicene Creed does, and suggest that we ought to adopt that instead, they could certainly attempt to do so.

Indeed, that's my approach for all of these early "Christianities". I don't just engage them just on the historical level, trying to figure out who believed what, when. I also consider them as "live options" for my own belief. In other words, the question for me is not just whether Gnosticism was or was not an authentic expression of Jesus' teachings, the question is also whether or not Gnosticism is a persuasive view of the world to me. Would I want to be a Gnostic? Do I agree with their beliefs? Likewise, with other Christological views, do I think any of them are more right than the one expressed by the Nicene Creed? Nicaea isn't unquestionably right just because it's what became dominant, but it's not necessarily wrong for that reason either. As much as possible I want to evaluate each of these theologies and worldviews on their own terms and see which make the most sense to me. Speaking personally, when I do that, more often than not I do find myself landing on the "orthodox" option in the end. But I'm also glad that I've arrived there by my own effort and not just because I felt compelled to blindly accept some creed (nor compelled to disbelieve it simply because I can see the historical/political factors that influenced it).

Labels: Gnosticism, history, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 2:47 PM | Permalink | 10 comments
Sunday, March 08, 2009
The Truth About First Century Women - International Women's Day Synchroblog
Today is International Women's Day, a day dedicated to the celebration of women’s social, economic and political achievements worldwide, and I'm celebrating by participating in the IWD Syncroblog my wife is organizing. She specifically asked us to write about women in the Bible, and I couldn't help but think of some of the things I've been learning in the "Early Church and Roman Society" class I'm currently taking at Austin Presbyterian Seminary. It's a fascinating class all around, and, fortuitously enough, we've actually just started discussing the roles of women in first-century cultures. Understanding this context is essential, I think, to understanding how the New Testament addresses the role of women in society and especially the early church. We have to know what it stands in contrast to in order to understand how revolutionary the Bible was for its day in regards to women.

First off, it's important to recognize that when talk about the cultures of the New Testament, we're not just talking about one monolithic thing. In our class we actually distinguished four different sets of cultural expectations that could have provided the setting for the New Testament writings about women: Jewish, Roman, Classical Greek/Athenian, and Macedonian/Hellenistic (I was intrigued to discover that Hellenistic - i.e. post-Alexander Macedonian -attitudes towards women were somewhat different than the older, Classical Greek ideals.) We also distinguished between upper and lower class gender norms, as well as cultural ideals versus actual practice.

I can't get into all of these here, but for this post at least, I did want to focus specifically on Jewish attitudes towards women in setting of the gospels. While of course we can't just disregard the Roman, Greek and Hellenistic contexts either since 1) many of the gospels were shaped within those settings, and 2) Roman and especially Hellenistic norms were certainly an influencing factor on Jewish culture in first century Palestine, when we look at the context of Jesus' teachings the Jewish cultural setting is primary and provides the baseline for everything else. The most intriguing thing I discovered in my class discussion was that there was apparently a pretty sharp divide between theory and practice among the Jews of Jesus day. Textual evidence (mainly from the rabbis) rarely talks about women except in regards to cleanliness laws, and, unlike other ancient Mediterranean cultures, there were no special festivals or days dedicated to women, or any specifically female civic or religious societies in first-century Judaism. When women are mentioned by the rabbis, it is basically just to recommend that they be kept separate from the men both in the synagogue and at home, and that they not be seen in public any more than necessary.

Archaeological evidence (e.g. tablets, inscriptions, architecture, etc.), however, shows that most of these rabbinical restrictions were rarely (if ever) enforced in actuality. For example, while the early rabbis wanted to have a separate "women's section" of the synagogue, archaeologists have yet to uncover any first century synagogues with such a partition. Likewise, while the rabbinical writings generally restrict theological training to men, ancient inscriptions indicate that in actuality many women did receive instruction in the Torah. Or consider the gospel narratives themselves. While written norms wanted to keep Jewish women indoors and away from the public sphere, in the gospels we see Jesus frequently encountering women out and about in society. The inevitable conclusion, as my professor pointed out, is that the picture of first century Jewish women as cloistered and segregated is not much more than an unrealized "ideal" created by a small handful of influential (male) rabbis. It may have been what the religious leaders thought "ought" to be the case, but the actual lives of real people were far different.

We also pointed out that a lot of this discrepancy probably had to do with socio-economic realities. Whether we're talking about Roman, Greek, or Jewish culture, the rules that apply to upper-class women are often simply impossible for the working class poor to abide by. When you're barely making it (as most people in this time period were) everyone, male or female, does whatever is necessary to survive. The rabbi can talk all he wants about how women shouldn't be out in public, but when your family's very survival depends on a wife or daughter going and selling your wares in the marketplace, religious ideals are usually going to take second place to economic realities.

Looking at it in this light, I can't help but draw a comparison with the situation in a lot of conservative churches these days. I can recall sitting in very culturally and theologically conservative churches and listening to the pastor tell his rural, working-class congregation that God's ideal for the family is for women to be stay-at-home-moms and for the men to be out working in the world as the breadwinners. And I recall looking around at the wives and mothers actually present as he said this and realizing that the vast majority of them didn't have any choice but to work outside the home. Given the hard realities of a depressed rural economy, most families simply can't survive on a single income anymore. What this pastor was preaching had no relevance to the actual lives of his people, and did little more than create guilt complexes for those women who were being told that they were disobeying God by doing what was necessary to provide for their families.

In these sorts of contexts then Jesus' teachings and example in the gospels is truly liberating. Rather than laying heavy burdens on his listeners by agreeing with the unrealistic ideals of the Pharisaical rabbis, Jesus stepped into the reality of women's lives and affirmed them where they were at. Never do we see Jesus telling a woman to retreat from engagement in society or to simply stay in their place as women. In fact, when Martha rebuked Mary for leaving her feminine role and daring to go receive rabbinical training along with the men, it is Martha, not Mary, that Jesus chastises. Likewise, we see Jesus out in public engaging in theological dialogue with women (e.g. the Woman at the Well, the Canaanite woman, and Martha herself after the death of her brother Lazarus), welcoming their presence as followers and disciples, and enlisting them as the very first witnesses to the resurrection. Jesus countered the dominant ideology of his day by dignifying the roles women were already playing in society and expanding their roles as participants in his mission. Rather than seeing themselves as victims of economic circumstance falling short of God's ideal, women could see their active, productive roles in public society as valuable assets for the kingdom of God. As my own experience in the aforementioned church bears out, this is a message that still needed for many women today.

---------------------------
Click here for the rest of the IWD Synchroblog posts.

Labels: feminism, history, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 2:47 PM | Permalink | 14 comments
Saturday, February 21, 2009
Was Jesus a Church Planter?
An off-hand remark in my New Testament textbook got me thinking the other day. Speaking on the Gospel of Matthew, it noted that Matthew seems to have retrospected the conditions of late first-century Christianity into Christ's teachings. Specifically it notes that Matthew repeatedly has Jesus talking about "the church", and points out that the church didn't exist yet when Jesus was preaching, and thus these sayings couldn't have been authentic.

But is it a safe assumption that there were no "churches" in existence while Jesus was still preaching? What about people who responded positively to Jesus' message and yet didn't leave their homes to wander around with him? Wouldn't his ministry have resulted in clusters of disciples, or maybe even whole villages, that had committed themselves to Jesus as the messiah? (Richard Horsley agrees this is likely in his book Jesus and Empire.) And if so, did these people ever gather to discuss what they had received? Whether they gathered in the synagogue or elsewhere, wouldn't it be appropriate to consider these sedentary communities as a kind of "church"? And if such communities did exist, then why couldn't Jesus have had them in mind in those passages where he talks about how to conduct the communal life of the "church"? Sure, the term "church" itself may have been retrospected back by Matthew, but I'm not sure it's a safe assumption to think Jesus didn't plant stable communities of followers, or that his teachings would have never referred to such communities.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's very possible, even likely, that Jesus was a church-planter of sorts.

Labels: New Testament, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 12:09 AM | Permalink | 0 comments
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
Troy Bronsink: Lost & Broken vs. Totally Depraved
Perhaps being at a relatively liberal reformed seminary myself and listening in to their discussions about the effect of sin on human nature is why I resonated so much with my friend Troy Bronsink's reflections on the subject. In an Emergent Village Cohort Leaders Discussion he offered the following thoughts:

It's wierd. In the liberal reformed seminary i went to the difference is between Barth (we are desperately unable to reach God without his interrupting revelation) and Tillich (we are created as beloved, co-creators with God, called to have the courage to return to our ground of being). But now I see it less either-or. At Neighbors Abbey last night we were reading Luke 5 when jesus says "its the sick that need a doctor." and I was surprised to hear myself reflect that i'd rather be a collection of the sick, the lost, and the blind, than a group who "has no need of a doctor" "has been found" or "now can see comprehensively and objectively." Even the zen/integrationist-est in
our group agreed that following a LIberator-Jesus includes knowing we stand in need, queued up for liberation.

So I still say that I'm over the "you're shit until you meet Jesus" pitch, while maintaining that meeting God in Christ gives us courage to be lost, blind, broken with the rest of the God-loved-world.

Right-on man! I agree that we're all created good, and in God's image, and nothing sin can do will ultimately destroy that. Nonetheless, there is something desperately missing if you only ever focus on human goodness. There needs to be room for lost, broken, messed up people to say so and find healing. Maybe the difference from a pastoral perspective, is between telling people they're screwed up, and giving them the freedom to admit when they feel like they are and offering them love, grace and healing anyway. And quite honestly, I too would prefer to be part of a humble community of the broken who know they need help than a self-righteous community that thinks they already have enough of the Spirit (or the divine-spark or whatever) that they don't need any more.

Labels: theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 10:09 AM | Permalink | 3 comments
Thursday, December 18, 2008
The Theology of a Three Year Old
Conversation at bedtime tonight:

Emma: "Where is God?"

Me: "God is everywhere. He made everything and is in everything."

Emma: "But God can only be in one thing."

Me: "Why?"

Emma: "If God is in a tomato then he can't be in a carrot, so there has to be lots of gods."

Apparently I'm raising a polytheist. :)

Labels: Emma, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 10:09 PM | Permalink | 1 comments
Wednesday, December 17, 2008
Nic Paton on Sola Scriptura
Nic Paton, an emerging guy from South Africa, has an excellent article up at the Emergent Village blog about questioning the value of "sola scriptura". Here's just a tidbit:

While I love scripture, and see myself to hold a high view of it, I question the doctrine’s modern application. In essence, I see it as excluding and reducing truth, as reactionary, and ironically, as unscriptural. But before we detail these objections, we need to look at a few background assumptions: what we understand as the “word of God”, the canon, the scriptures as “law” not narrative, and the taints in this view of enlightenment rationalism.

  • While today we see the “Word of God” as synonymous with the “book” called the Bible (it’s more of a library of books between 2 covers), in the vast majority of cases in scripture itself, it refers to a breathed, and spoken word. If scripture is made to mean the written or printed word of God, then it represents only a subset of God’s greater expression.
  • Regarding that library, we have received by tradition what is known as the canon. For Protestants this means 66 books in total. This was “finalized” between 393 and 419 CE at the synod of Hippo, under the aegis of St. Augustine.
  • Despite the canon being considered “closed”, Martin Luther in his reforms rejected the apocryphal books, still part of the canon for much of the church. While Luther emphasized scriptural authority, he rejected scriptures then current. And while he rejected Church authority, he accepted the rest of the canon which had been ratified by the church and passed on by that authority.
  • In the wake of rationalism and scientism, we tend to view scripture as a book of law, a textbook, or a set of logical propositions, rather than a book of story. Our post enlightenment view has caused us to require scripture to be “perspicuous to reason”, and non-contradictory.

A closed canon, a rejection (or fear) of contradiction, a literate culture where the oral and non-written is set against and over what is printed, and the static and deterministic worldview of modernism has caused us to close down and defend the bible. When Jesus said “You have heard it written … but I say to you …” (Mt 5:39) he might have been addressing us. We still fail to see revelation as evolving, despite the fact that Jesus and his ministry was founded upon a progressive revelation of God.

I don't have much to say about it except that I totally agree with Paton and he expresses my thoughts on the matter better than I could. I'd definitely recommend reading the whole article.

Labels: theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 10:08 AM | Permalink | 0 comments
Tuesday, December 02, 2008
The Relational Nature of Sin
Note: This is going to be a very long post. This was the theology paper I had to write for my Systematic Theology class a few weeks back. I thought I'd post it here so you can enjoy/rip me apart for my heretical neo-Pelagian reinterpretation of original sin. :) BTW, the focus on Calvin and Aquinas was due to the requirements of the assignment, not because I was exceptionally interested in their views on the subject, though I suppose they're as good representatives of the Western church's theology of sin as any.


The Relational Nature of Sin

Both Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin fundamentally define sin as a breaking of relationship. For instance Calvin declares in his Institutes that “Unfaithfulness [to God], then, was at the root of the Fall.” Furthermore, both highlight sin as having both individual and social aspects. In other words, the brokenness is both within us and external to us. We are sinful people born into a sinful world. I think contemporary theologian and biblical scholar Scot McKnight does the best job of elaborating on this multi-faceted character of sin in his book A Community Called Atonement, where he describes sin as broken relationships between ourselves and God, self, others and the world. Likewise, Jesus himself said that the whole of the Law can be summed up in two commands: love God and love others . If God’s desires for humanity are thus all about love, then sin, in the teachings of Jesus, would have to be defined as a failure to love, which is another way of saying, once again that it’s about broken relationships.

However, I want to suggest that if this is the case, if we agree with Thomas, Calvin, McKnight, and Jesus that sin ought to be primarily understood as a break in relationship between ourselves and God, self, others, and the world, then it has further implications for how we understand original sin, sin’s effects on us as human beings, and also what it means to be saved from it. I also want to suggest that while Thomas and Calvin get this basic definition of sin right, their subsequent conclusions about the nature and transmission of original sin, and its effects on human beings are out of sync with this definition. After asserting the relational character of sin, both Thomas and Calvin then proceed to describe sin’s effect on us in primarily ontological terms. For instance, Thomas speaks of sin as “disorder in the disposition of the parts of the soul”, and Calvin likewise talks of a “hereditary depravity and corruption of our nature, diffused into all parts of the soul”. Sin thus quickly moves beyond the relational sphere into a more individualistic problem of our corrupted natures. While neither Calvin nor Thomas neglect the relational and corporate effects of sin in their writing, I would argue that these balancing themes often appear to be subordinated to individualized questions of forensic righteousness and personal sanctification because of their understanding of sin as an ontological condition. Salvation thus becomes primarily about personal forgiveness, individual sanctification, and post-mortem reward rather than relational reconciliation and healing. These emphases often become even more pronounced in the theology of their later followers, even when Calvin or Thomas themselves appear more balanced. I would suggest that we instead need to back up and keep the definition of sin as relational brokenness wholly in our vision as we explore the effects of sin and what it means to be saved from it. Sin as relational brokenness will have very different implications than sin as a corruption of human nature.

Let us first consider the implications of this view of sin as relational brokenness on our understanding of original sin. What does this definition of sin imply about how the original sin is “passed down” to us? Again I would suggest that both Thomas and Calvin’s views stem more from their ontological descriptions of sin, rather than a relational definition. Thomas said it was an “inborn” (i.e. biological) inheritance from our first parents , and Calvin (quoting Augustine) said it was an “inborn defect from our mother’s womb” and that we are “born infected with the contagion of sin.” I would argue, however, that neither Thomas’ nor Calvin’s views seems to have much to do with the definition of sin as relational brokenness. How can a relational situation be transmitted through genetics or “infection”? I suggest instead that a relational condition would have to be passed down through a relational/social process.

More specifically I want to suggest that the relational brokenness which we call sin is primarily the result of what sociologists would call “socialization”. It seems to me that both Thomas’ and Calvin’s views reflect an “essentialist” view of human nature wherein we are born with a fixed identity that determines who and what we are. To put it in more familiar (though potentially misleading) terms, they would argue for nature over nurture as the chief determinant of our sinfulness. In contrast to this, I would suggest a “constructivist” view of human nature wherein biological inheritance (nature) plays a role, but is not wholly determinative. Rather we become who we are through a complex interplay of nature and nurture, and especially through the process of socialization, that process of social interaction by which we learn the moral norms, attitudes, values, motives, social roles, language and symbols of our culture and through which our personalities, self-identity, and inward character is shaped. In other words, we become who we are in relationship with and through the influence of others.

If this is the case, then sin as relational brokenness would be as much, and probably much more, a product of socialization as it is of any natural inheritance. We are raised by and formed by broken people who exist in broken relationships with each other, both inter-personally, communally, and societally. Recalling McKnight’s description of sin, we’d have to say that this brokenness also extends to their relationships with God, with the created world, and within themselves as well. This being the case, we cannot help but become broken ourselves. Who we are and who we become is shaped by broken people in a broken society. Humans are inherently social/relational beings and it is impossible for us to exist apart from relationship. Therefore it is not possible for us to avoid being affected by relational brokenness. Original sin is thus “inherited”, but socially, not biologically. Sin is not “inborn”, but neither is it strictly “willful”. We are “sinners” before we ever consciously choose to sin, because even before we’ve become aware of our brokenness it has become a part of us. Thus my view is similar to Pelagius’ idea of sin as passed down through “imitation”, though not entirely since I do not imply willful imitation. Calvin mentions Pelagius’ view, though offers little by way of counter-argument to his position except to rail that if sin is propagated by imitation then Christ’s righteousness would also be communicated to us by imitation, and, according to Calvin, this is “sacrilege” and “well known” not to be the case. In my opinion Calvin’s critique of Pelagius simply begs the question and is not convincing to me in any case.

I want to turn now to the effect of sin on the human person. If sin is about broken relationships, and if it is passed down socially, not biologically, what does that imply about the extent of sin’s effects on us and whether or not we are capable of overcoming it? Calvin’s view was that our depravity was total. We are wholly corrupted by sin. “The heavenly image was obliterated in him, ” according to Calvin. However, in my opinion, this view doesn’t match up well to an idea of sin as relational brokenness, especially if we pair it with an understanding, suggested by Scot McKnight along with many others, of the imago dei as having to do with our being created in relationship with God, self, others and the world . Yes, all of our relationships are broken to one degree or another, but they are not wholly destroyed, nor are they wholly corrupted. Nor does this brokenness happen totally and immediately in all instances, as a doctrine of total depravity would seem to require. Rather, brokenness tends to be gradual and degenerative (we can all likely think of good relationships in our past that have slowly gone sour for one reason or another). Things tend to get progressively worse, but not all at once. If this is the case, then there must have been some original goodness in our relationships that is being degraded, and thus they cannot be said to have been totally depraved.

In this instance I think Aquinas’ view was that we are still good in our natures, but habitually inclined towards sin fits better with the definition of sin as relational brokenness . We are still relational beings. We are still capable of loving God and others, just not perfectly. The good and the bad end up getting all mixed up together. The imago dei, which I do take to be fundamentally about our nature as relational creatures, is not “obliterated” by sin. We still exist in relationship. But those relationships have a tendency to become broken and degrade with time because of the socialized effects of sin in our lives.

However, it is also important to recognize that, even if we retain some basic capacity for healthy relationships, because of the complex social nature of sin, we are still incapable of overcoming relational brokenness on our own. If we attempt to fix our own personal brokenness, we still have to exist within a broken society that continues to shape us and drag us back into unhealthy patterns and relationships. On the other hand, if we attempt to fix society, our own personal brokenness usually tends to thwart our efforts. Both things need to happen at the same time, but the long history of failed utopian efforts suggests that this ultimately impossible for broken human beings in a broken society. We can’t fix everything needs fixing all on our own.

I want to suggest that this inability to heal our own brokenness is why we need Christ. His life, teachings, death, resurrection, and ongoing ministry through the Spirit and through the church begin to heal the personal and corporate brokenness that keeps us trapped in cycles of sin. The life and teachings of Jesus provide us with a model of how to live life to the full in service of God and others, thereby moving us towards both personal and corporate wholeness. The death of Jesus demonstrates God’s forgiveness of our sins, thereby restoring relationship between us and God, and also provides a model of how we ought to self-sacrificially forgive others sins against us so as to break the cycle of revenge and violence and restore our relationship with others. The resurrection of Jesus demonstrates God’s ability to ultimately triumph over sin and its effects, thereby giving us the hope to continue on in his mission to restore broken relationships in the world, even when it requires personal suffering and sacrifice. Furthermore, the inner work of the Spirit, aided by our practice of spiritual disciplines and sacramental means of grace (which I personally extend far beyond the traditional “sacraments” – all of life is potentially “sacramental” inasmuch as God can communicate his grace to us through any variety of physical means), begins to heal our personal brokenness. And finally the church as the body of Christ is intended to be a community of reconciliation where we can begin to be re-socialized into new patterns of behavior and then sent out as agents of reconciliation in the world. The church as a healing community begins to transform individuals with God’s love, and the church as a missional community seeks to transform the world with God’s love.

However, it should be recognized that this process of inward and outward healing and reconciliation is an ever ongoing process. The inward work of the Spirit doesn’t immediately eradicate all of the influence of sin in our lives, nor does the church always live up to its calling to be a community of reconciliation; thus none of us succeed in imitating Christ perfectly. Just as the influence of sin is gradual and degenerative, likewise Christ’s work of relational healing and reconciliation is a gradual process of restoration.

Nevertheless, I believe that keeping the relational nature of sin in front of us is vitally important so that we don’t get so sidetracked into focusing on notions of personal forensic righteousness that we forget what the problem is that we’re trying to fix in the first place. As I’ve only briefly alluded to in the last few paragraphs, understanding the nature of sin directly affects our understanding the nature of the atonement, of the Spirit and of the church. In other words, if we misunderstand the nature of the problem, then we are bound to misunderstand the nature of the solution, and I am afraid that, too often, this is precisely what ends up happening to those who follow a Thomistic or Calvinistic theology too uncritically.

Labels: theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 9:55 AM | Permalink | 17 comments
Saturday, November 15, 2008
What's On My Mind
I'm getting into the end of the semester, with all the big papers and exams coming up. Because of this, I don't have a lot of time or mental energy to think about blog posts. So instead, here are a few of the school-related things that have been on my mind in the past week (several of which will remain on my mind for the weeks to come:

1) Finding resources for an annotated bibliography on early Christianity as a counter-imperial movement. Funny how all the older (20+ years) resources I found claimed that early Christians were perfectly happy to accommodate themselves to the political power structures of the Roman Empire, whereas all the resources I found that were less than a decade old recognized that this was only one stream of the church (the one that became "normative" after the church finally did accommodate itself post-Constantine), but that there were also many other streams in the first few centuries that saw themselves engaged in active, subversive, non-violent resistance to the Empire.

2) The doctrine of original sin and whether it makes any sense to say that it is a biological inheritance. My contention is that if sin is a relation dysfunction (i.e. broken relationships between ourselves and God and others) then it would have to be passed down through relational, not biological, means - which I identify mainly as the process of socialization.

3) How some conservative evangelicals (especially among certain Southern Baptists and the new Reformed Radicals) are moving back towards fundamentalism. Specifically I'll be researching and writing about how some conservative evangelicals are having the same sort of reaction to postmodernism that the fundamentalists of a century ago had towards modernism.

Labels: theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 9:36 PM | Permalink | 10 comments
Thursday, October 30, 2008
David Wilcox & Postmodern Theology

One of my favorite musicians is folk-singer/songwriter David Wilcox. His music expresses just so many things that seem true to me. He's not a "Christian" artist (though he is a Christian), but quite honestly, whenever I need a reminder of what it is I really do believe in and why (and why, in the end, I can't merely be a skeptic or an atheist), I listen to his songs. Whether it's "Out of the Question", "Native Tongue", "That's What the Lonely is For", or my all-time favorite, "Show the Way", his songs express truths that are both simple and profound at the same time.

I especially like how well he expresses what can only be called "postmodern" insights about life and reality. For instance, his song "(What Happened to My) Modern World" is a humorous, yet dead-on-the-money expression of the death of modernity's myth of progress. However, I was most struck by "No Telling Where", which beautifully expressed the limits of our language to capture the depth of reality, and how when we try to bring deep truths to the surface with our pale words, they die. Here are the lyrics:

No Telling Where
from Airstream

It will change you like a lover
when you dive below the reef
And see the phosphorescent colors
shimmer way beyond belief
But when taken to the surface,
all that color fades away
‘Cause when lifted out of water,
living coral turns to grey

But down deep - it’s so bright -
that the light won’t leave you
You’ve seen - this sight -
and they can’t believe you
‘Cause your words - go dull -
and they never could explain
There is just no telling where you’ve been

On the map it shows the mountain,
but I’d never seen a glimpse
Of the hundred miles of vista
represented by an inch
That was just a trail of bread crumbs,
all their words set out so clear
But there’s nothing they could tell me
that could ever take me here

To this view - this height -
that the heart remembers
It’s proof - It’s life -
It’s the burning ember
My words - go cold -
and there’s nothing to explain
There is just no telling where I’ve been

When this sunrise sees me
The first light burns brand new
Seems so easy
To tell what I’ve been through
But my little camera can’t keep up
with panoramas all around
There’s just too much view to capture
when we stand on sacred ground
Though my mind cannot explain it,
my heart’s filled up to the sky
I know words could not contain it,
but I’m fool enough to try

Then you smile - at me -
and my heart is listening
Your eyes - they speak -
and there’s nothing missing
It’s quiet - up here -
we can listen to the wind
‘Cause there’s just no telling where we’ve been

Labels: David Wilcox, philosophy, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 11:07 PM | Permalink | 1 comments
Monday, October 13, 2008
Caught In-Between
I briefly mentioned a few weeks ago about how I feel caught in-between the liberal and conservative Christian worlds at seminary, especially in my Old Testament class. My OT prof is a great guy and very knowledgeable, however, he can occasionally come across rather condescending in the way he assumes that the only reason one would have to doubt the critical scholars' views or methods regarding the Hebrew Scriptures is because one holds a traditionalist/literalist view of the Bible, and that it's just too disturbing to one's faith to consider that, for instance, the events related in the Pentateuch are not entirely historical, or that the book of Isaiah was not all written by the same guy. And granted, there are a few people in the class like that who are having some strong reactions to these "liberal" readings of the Bible; but that isn't me.

The strange position I find myself in is that, on one hand, it doesn't shake my faith at all to consider these alternative ways of understanding scripture. Taking Isaiah for instance, what difference does it make whether one prophet in the 8th century BC wrote all of it, or whether it was written by several different people over 3-4 centuries and eventually collected as reflective of a particular "Isaianic" school of prophecy. The Holy Spirit is just as capable of inspiring multiple authors and editors as she is of inspiring just one guy. Thus I have no existential "need" to reject any of these critical theories simply out of hand. I'm completely open to new ideas and find that they generally strengthen, not challenge, my faith.

However, on the other hand, I do have some scholarly criticisms and doubts about the assumptions and methods that underlie some of the particular conclusions of the critical theories. Again, let me use Isaiah as an example. The literary-critical theory that the book of Isaiah is actually at least three distinct books (First Isaiah, chapters 1-39; Deutero-Isaiah, chapters 40-55; and Trito-Isaiah, chapters 56-66), and each book itself is composed of many different segments composed by different authors, is based on four observations about the text:

1) Differences in the language (e.g. syntax, grammar, vocabulary, morphology, etc.) between the different sections. The analogy given in class was that it was like taking poems by Shakespeare, Yeats, Jack Kerouac and Maya Angelou, mashing them all together and trying to pass them off as coming from the same author. It wouldn't take a scholar to figure out that something wasn't quite right. So, just as there would be a noticeable difference in the language of a 16th century Shakespearean sonnet versus a 20th century poem by Maya Angelou, we can infer a similar difference of time period and authorship between the various segments of Isaiah.

2) Differences in literary genres between different sections of the text. The book of Isaiah frequently switches between poetry, prophetic oracles, personal narratives and historical accounts. The assumption is that different genres should be attributed to different authors.

3) Differences in the content of the oracles. Parts of Isaiah are very doom and gloom, prophesying destruction and judgment, while other parts offer hope of deliverance and salvation. The assumption is that each of these must be the work of different persons.

4) Specific prophecies about events (such as a Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem and subsequent exile of the Jews in Babylon) which post-date the historical Isaiah by a century or more are assumed to be by later writers. The reasons for this are two-folds: first, it is unusual for Hebrew prophets to address situations that didn't relate to their immediate audience at all. In Isaiah's time, Judah was being threatened by the invasion of the Assyrians. Why then would any of his contemporaries pay attention if he started warning them about a Babylonian threat that wouldn't materialize for over a century? Second, critical scholars generally operate on the naturalistic assumption that predictive prophecy is impossible, and thus any specific prophecies about future events must have actually been written reflectively, after the fact.

Again, I have no fundamental resistance to the suggestion that Isaiah was composed by multiple authors, however, of the reasons for this that I just mentioned, I don't find all of them very convincing. The first one is the most solid, IMHO. It does seem likely that significant linguistic differences would be the result of multiple authorship. Unfortunately, without a personal knowledge of Hebrew, I can't say for certain how many of the divisions of the book are based on these sorts of differences.

The next two reasons, differences in genre and content, are entirely unconvincing to me. It's not authors are incapable of writing in more than one style, or of writing about more than one thing. To take the Shakespeare analogy again, he wrote both plays and poems, and he wrote about countless themes and ideas, some of which conflict with each other. Why assume that Isaiah is any less capable of literary diversity? In the absence of other supporting evidence, positing multiple authors based on these criteria alone seems unnecessarily complicated and unconvincing to me.

The final reason, predictive prophecy, is only partially convincing to me. I fully agree that it makes more sense for the Babylonian oracles to have been written around the time when Babylon was an actual threat, and not a century before hand. In this regards it's important to remember that the biblical definition of "prophecy" isn't primarily about "predicting the future". Rather it's about communicating God's will and intentions to God's people as they try to navigate the circumstances they are in. Thus it makes sense that God's words would have been first delivered at a time when they were most relevant.

On the other hand, if the rationale is primarily based on a naturalistic assumption that predictive prophecy absolutely cannot, and therefore does not happen, that seems illegitimate to me. I say illegitimate not as a supernaturalist (though I am one) but as an (aspiring) historian. Naturalistic assumptions about history are just that, assumptions - i.e. preconceived philosophical biases that get in the way of the more fundamental historical question of "what, in fact, happened?" The historian should make no judgment one way or the other about whether supernatural phenomenon can occur. Our question should simply be: "what is the evidence we have for what actually did occur?" And if the evidence supports the possibility of a supernatural occurrence, we shouldn't be so quick to rule out that interpretation of the events out of hand. And there have been a least a few instances in my OT class, and especially in the primary text book, where that presumption of naturalism has been the driving motivation for a particular interpretation of a passage.

At any rate, I guess in the final analysis I'd say that the more of these factors that come into play, the more likely it is that the text is the product of multiple authorship. However, not being a full-fledged Old Testament scholar, I can't exactly say how often there actually is more than one factor in consideration. My impression, especially given the wide disagreement even among literary-critical scholars about how exactly the text should be broken down, is that these divisions are not always so clear cut and that our commitment to this way of reading the text should therefore be held fairly tentatively. And I guess, ultimately, that's my biggest complaint about the "liberal" scholarship and this class in general: I have no problem with considering all of these theories as possibilities, but it's when they get passed off as nearly certain truths (and therefore anyone who raises questions about them must simply be a conservative reactionary) that it rubs me the wrong way. I'm starting to gather during my time at a liberal seminary that this is one of the defining differences between liberal (or conservative) moderns and emerging postmoderns like myself - not the content of our views, necessarily, but the relative degree of certitude with which we hold them.

Labels: seminary, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 4:51 PM | Permalink | 6 comments
Friday, September 26, 2008
A Question in Theology Class
“If Gnostics didn’t kill themselves, why would they have sex?”

Labels: fun, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 1:43 PM | Permalink | 2 comments
Thursday, June 19, 2008
Book Review: Jesus for President
I meant to post my review of Jesus for President, the new book by Shane Claiborne & Chris Haw, a few weeks ago, but I got distracted. Anyhow, it is, on many levels, a simply amazing book. Before even getting into the content and themes, I should say that the whole layout and design is a work of art (much of it by my friends Chico & Tatiana Fajardo-Heflin, Paul Soupiset and Holly & Ryan Sharp - you can click here for examples of a few pages.) I've literally never seen a book like this before. The images found on nearly every page are evocative and unusual and add to the total experience.

In the book Shane and Chris set out to show how the biblical narratives, from Genesis through revelation, are decidedly anti-imperial, and how we as followers of Jesus must likewise resist being co-opted by the imperial systems of our own day by pursuing a counter-movement of simplicity, generosity, self-sacrifice, non-violence, and radical love for others and for one's enemies. In this, it is nothing new for me, as these are themes that I've been pondering for the past year or so myself (though much credit for that should go to Shane's earlier book). However, this is the first place I've seen it laid out so systematically and accessibly. I agree with this basic premise, and I think Shane and Chris do a great job of weaving in biblical analysis with issues of contemporary relevance. For this alone (and for the amazing artwork) I highly recommend this book.

However, I have to admit that the whole way through something was nagging at me. While I agreed with 95% of what these guys were saying, I kept feeling like there was something I couldn't quite go along with in their approach. Eventually I determined that it came down to two things:

1) Their critique of empire and the systems of this world, and their suggested solution that we ought to withdraw (as much as possible) into the contrast community of the church, is too "either/or". At times it seemed as if they saw almost nothing good out in the world, and likewise perhaps had too high a view of the goodness of the Christian community (for instance their suggestion that Christians ought to reinstate the practice of excommunication, without really addressing how to keep this practice from quickly becoming abusive) - though to be fair, this either/or dichotomy was far more implicit than explicit throughout most of the book. Quite honestly, it reminded me too much of the separatism of the conservative, borderline fundamentalist, Christian sub-culture of my youth. While the fundamentalists recommend separation from the world to avoid being corrupted by sexual immorality and false doctrine, Shane and Chris' neo-anabaptism recommends separating from it to avoid being corrupted by materialism, violence, and power.

But while I might resonate more with Shane and Chris' concerns than those of conservatives, I've still found the doctrine of separation itself to be flawed. What I eventually discovered when I was a conservative separatist was that "the world" is not always as bad as it it made out to be - that there is much truth and beauty and goodness even among non-believers. God is still at work, even outside the walls of the church. Likewise, I suspect that God is similarly at work for goodness and justice, even among the structures of empire. I guess what I found lacking in this book was a sense that God can work redemptively, not just outside of and in spite of the empire, but even sometimes in it and through it.

2) I also agree with Zack Exley's critique that this neo-monastic/neo-anabaptist movement of which Shane and Chris are stereotypical is in danger of "making an idol out of smallness and slowness". The book highlighted many fantastic stories of lone individuals or small groups of people living counter-culturally to the empire, and I am all about celebrating such stories. However, this were the only examples that were given, and I was left wondering "But, if all we ever engage in are these small, symbolic acts of resistance, are we ever really going to change anything?" and more importantly "What about justice for those who really are oppressed by the empire on a large scale?" I mean it's all well and good for the privileged children of white suburbanites to decide they're going to sell all their possessions and live among the poor and oppressed, but I can't help but think that some of those poor and oppressed might prefer it if we used our power and wealth to help them out of their poverty and oppression.

Besides which, there are some injustices that simply cannot be dealt with on the small, local scale. The Jubilee Campaign is a perfect example. International debt relief for impoverished nations can be advocated for by individuals and communities, but ultimately it has to be enacted on the national and international levels. Similar arguments can be made regarding the enormity of problems like the AIDS epidemic, global climate change, and extreme poverty, just to name a few. Something can and should be done about these problems, but they will not get done if we only ever insist on doing things small and apart from the existing structures of power and wealth. If we insist on maintaining our own self-righteous "purity" from the empire, we will be guilty of neglecting justice.

However, these critiques should not be taken to mean that I didn't appreciate and enjoy the book. There is still much here of value; and even these areas of disagreements are useful in provoking thought and conversation. In the end Claiborne/Haw and I agree that the way of Jesus - not the way of Caesar, or America, or Wall Street, etc. - ought to be our sole guide to how we live and act in the world. However, we perhaps disagree on the scale of those actions, and on whether it is possible to actually practice the way of Christ in midst of Wall Street or Washington or wherever.

Labels: book reviews, politics, Shane Claiborne, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 9:04 PM | Permalink | 7 comments
Saturday, May 10, 2008
The Serenity Prayer
Most of you will have heard the Serenity Prayer at least once or twice. It's the one Alcoholics Anonymous uses:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

What many of you probably don't know is that it was written by the highly influential 20th Century American theologian Rienhold Niebuhr. I was listening to a Speaking of Faith podcast on Niebuhr today while mowing the lawn and was surprised to learn that this simple prayer was actually an encapsulation of Niebuhr's whole approach to Christian involvement in politics and social justice. Niebuhr was a "Christian Realist" when it came to how we ought to engage in the world, which means, in the words of his biographer Richard Wightman Fox, "He exhorted his readers and listeners to take responsibility for their world while warning them against the temptation to try to perfect it." Niebuhr realized that while action for social justice was good and necessary, even the best of people will end up doing a certain amount of evil in the process of attempting to do good. In other words, we can never get it completely right, but that doesn't mean we should just give up and do nothing. The important thing is to stay engaged, but to do it in a self-critical way, to always be on guard against self-righteousness and fanaticism.

What I also find fascinating is this idea that the Serenity Prayer is originally about social justice. The basic idea is that engaging in social action requires us to do what we can, but to also be realistic about what we cannot to - to not overestimate our own efficaciousness or come at it with a naive optimism that believes we ourselves can solve every problem or bring heaven on earth. I find that this is a good reminder and an important balance to find, especially for those of us who have begun to see the kingdom of God as a present reality and something which we are trying to put into practice in the here and now. Even as we do so, it is important to remain humble about our limitations as flawed and finite human beings, and remember that ultimately it is God, not us, that establishes his own kingdom. We simply have the privilege of contributing our small part to it if we are willing.

Labels: Speaking of Faith, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 5:52 PM | Permalink | 2 comments
Monday, May 05, 2008
Blue on the Bible
Debbie Blue's book From Stone to Living Word is an excellent deconstruction of how our penchant for idolatry infects our readings of the Bible. (I especially like that she regularly quotes from multiple postmodern philosophers on the subject, including my former professor, Bruce Benson and his book Graven Ideologies.) This quote here captures much of what the book is about:

The Bible doesn't supply us with a neat package of timeless wisdom and moral certitude. It witnesses to what it is like to be living beings in relationship to the living God, what it's like to encounter the Word of a God who speaks rather than statically exists, a God who continually creates life and resurrects it, who seems interested in growing shoots from stumps, not cutting them off, making possibility where there was impossibility, loving more than fixing. It's maybe more like a love that is new every morning than something you can carry around, stand on, or use to fight duels. The Word remains open and vulnerable, and that's nothing to be afraid of. Maybe the Word in all its crazy uncontrollableness can be let loose and trusted, not to do what the church necessarily expects or even wants, but in some way slightly unfathomable to us, to break, save, love, and redeem the world.

The belief that the Bible contains the absolute truth of God, set in stone, is something that has permeated popular evangelical culture. People who are not Christians seem to think that part of being a Christian is to believe that the text is coherent and that we would be disturbed to know it does not say the same thing throughout, that it contradicts itself, that it is garbled and weird. I wish we could all be out about that, that we could say yes, we know it's garbled and weird. We have a very strange text as our scripure. Isn't that wild? Doesn't that say something interesting about faith? Religion? Idolatry? They are fairly predictable and orderly, but faith? In the radically alive, relentlessly loving, having-nothing-to-do-with-death-God? What a crazy, beautiful thing.

That last bit about non-Christians expecting us Christians to be shocked to find out that the Bible is weird and contradictory (i.e. "multi-faceted") reflects well a conversation I recently had over at Friendly Atheist. And it's funny, they sometimes seem almost offended if you do acknowledge that fact openly and then declare that you still have faith in that kind of Bible. Personally though, I don't know how to do anything else. If that's what the Bible is, then I'm going to take it for what it is - a crazy beautiful thing.

Labels: theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 11:26 AM | Permalink | 2 comments
Wednesday, March 26, 2008
We Were There First
I seem to regularly hear these criticisms of progressive Christians like myself that we are merely regurgitating Christianized versions of Marxism, or liberalism, or environmentalism, or pacifism, or multi-culturalism, or whatever other "-ism" you happen to not like and think you can apply as a blanket dismissal. The major flaw in these accusations is that in order to "regurgitate" something, you have to have swallowed it first, and quite honestly, on most of these issues I have not. Prior to becoming more "progressive" on issues, I honestly did little reading of authors in any of these areas, and even less wholesale "swallowing" of what I did read. My opinions were instead formed primarily through biblical reflection and subsequent conversation within the body of Christ. In other words, I came to these as "Christian" views, not as secular views that I was trying to "Christianize".

I think what is missed by those who want to label and thereby dismiss, is that we (meaning Jesus and followers of Jesus throughout the centuries) were there first on many of these issues. Marx may have talked a lot about liberating the oppressed, but Jesus talked about it long before he did in Luke 4:18-19. (And the prophets too, before Jesus.) The first statement of multi-culturalism I'm aware of comes not from 20th century Civil Rights activists, but from Revelation 7:9, and the first statement in all of human history on the inherent equality of human beings regardless of race, gender, or socio-economic status, came 1700+ years before the Declaration of Independence (which of course didn't even include all of these categories), in Galatians 3:28. And Moses told us to treat immigrants as part of our own, long before immigration ever became an issue in America.

Or take the separation of church and state. As I pointed out the other day, that was invented by Baptists, not secular atheists. Or environmentalism and animal rights - rabbis and theologians have been talking about the need to care for God's creation for centuries before Earth Day was ever invented, and people like C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien were anti-vivisectionists before Peter Singer was even born. And while pacifism, for instance, might be associated these days with the 1960's counter-culture, the early Christians, at least until the time of Constantine, were the original pacifists. Until the '60s, "conscientious objectors" were almost always Anabaptists, not hippies.

And of course, these are just a few examples. So again, we were there first. I don't care what Marx did or didn't say, I'm going to keep talking about liberating the oppressed, because Jesus talked about it. I don't care if caring for the environment is associated with New Agey tree-huggers, because God told us to do it anyway, way back in Genesis 1. I don't care if following Jesus makes me sometimes look like a "liberal" or a "Democrat" even. I'm simply trying to follow where he leads. If that occasionally brings me in line with the values of other movements, great, I'm glad to share common purpose and work together for shared goals, but one shouldn't assume that any movements which share similar values and goals necessarily spring from the same well.

Labels: politics, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 6:02 PM | Permalink | 24 comments
Saturday, March 22, 2008
Blog Against Theocracy: We Invented Separation
This weekend is the official "Blog Against Theocracy" blogswarm. The idea is to post reflections supporting the separation of church and state.

Having grown up in a conservative evangelical background, I had always assumed that the separation of church and state was one of those "liberal" ideas used by our atheistic secular culture to persecute Christians like me (totally ignoring the fact that with 75% of the American population claiming to be Christians, I really didn't have a right to consider myself a persecuted religious minority). I thought that we really were a "Christian nation", or that if we weren't, we ought to be. I used to fight about whether the Founding Fathers really meant to keep religion out of government, or whether they were simply trying to protect religion from government interference (never considering that perhaps it was both). I even knew that the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" was not actually in the Constitution, but had come from something Thomas Jefferson once said, and since everyone knew that Jefferson was really a deist that had cut out all the parts of the Bible he didn't like, that just reinforced my assumption that "separation" was an anti-Christian atheistic ideal.

However, the great irony is that I didn't realize until much later that the idea separation didn't originate with Jefferson at all. In fact, that "wall of separation" phrase was written by Jefferson in a reply to a group of Baptists in which he was simply agreeing with their views on religious liberty. In other words, separation, far from being a secularist, atheist idea, actually originated among Christians, and among Baptists no less! I had been raised a Baptist and attended Baptist churches for most of the the first 26 years of my life, and yet I had never been given the slightest inkling that separation of church and state had always been one of the primary theological distinctions of the Baptist tradition. In fact, we invented it!

The concept dates back at least to Martin Luther's "doctrine of two kingdoms", but was more significantly promoted by the Anabaptists, who faced intense persecution from both Catholics and Protestants wielding the power of the State against them. Founding leader of the Baptists in England (the Baptists were a fusion of Anabaptist and Puritan views), Thomas Helwys, actually wrote one of the earliest statements on religious liberty in 1612 in a note to King James, which subsequently landed him in prison where he died a few years later. And later, in the early days of the United States, we have Baptist preachers like Isaac Backus and John Leland to thank for their vociferous support of separation for the freedoms we now enjoy.

What many conservative Christians, and ironically most Baptists in America these days don't realize is that the separation of church and state is a good thing for them. When you are in the majority in a nation, as Christians now are, it may seem like an annoyance, but in the early days of nation, evangelicals like the Baptists were very much in the minority and were rightly fearful that interference by the church in government affairs would mean the sanctioned persecution of smaller sects like themselves by established churches like the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics. To understand the importance of not allowing any establishment of religion by the government, evangelicals need only to imagine how they would feel if official government sponsored religion meant Roman Catholic religion (as is often the case in Latin America) or perhaps even Mormonism (as is sometimes the case in parts of Utah). For those Baptists who gripe about taking prayer out of the public schools, I wonder how they'd feel if such school sponsored prayer included a prayer to Mary or the saints. For those who want the Bible taught in the public schools (and not simply as a work of literature or history, but as something "more"), I ask, whose interpretation of the Bible? Would they be as happy if the Bible is taught with a liberal mainline spin, or a Pentecostal spin, or a Calvinist spin, or a Catholic spin?

Two hundred years ago conservative evangelicals were smart enough to realize that keeping direct religious influences out of the government was in everyone's best interests, including their own. It's sad to see how much has changed. However, not all hope is lost. For instance, the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty is a coalition that represents over 10 million Baptists and is active in upholding the traditional Baptist distinctive of church-state separation. And beyond the Baptists, there are still many, many Christians in both conservative denominations and elsewhere that are increasingly wary of the theocratic rhetoric of the Religious Right. There is a massive shift that is occurring right now among evangelicals, and I am hopeful that support for church-state separation among conservative Christians is one of those ideas that will soon become more of the norm than the exception.

Labels: politics, theology

 
posted by Mike Clawson at 10:25 PM | Permalink | 7 comments
Layout design by Pannasmontata Header image © VladStudio